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hawg2hawk

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Posts
156
Can anyone point me in the right direction to get smart about unions? I am way stupid on this subject. Agency shop, right to work, you might as well be speaking mandarin chinese to me.
I'm especially stupid on the carriers that require membership and how that all works. How dues work. All of it.
Thanks in advance.

P.S. I don't necessarily want an explanation on here (unless you're so inclined), just an objective source of information so I can educate myself. And I already know the address of the ALPA website.
 
If you really want to learn about how the system works, get yourself a text book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/104-3274671-2615151?v=glance&s=books

Then when you learn the definitions of Agency Shop, Right to work, and NMB, NLRB, 30 day cooling off, etc, go out and read:

Flying the Line Part I
Flying the Line Part II
Hard Landings
Grounded: Frank Lorenzo and the Destruction of Eastern Airlines

These books will tell you about the airline industry, but not about how Labor Relations work.

Fate.
 
One Sandy to another,

At Southwest it is considered a "closed" shop...everyone is a member of the "union". Dues are 1%. Southwest Airlines Pilot Association (SWAPA) is an independent pilot union not affiliated with any other union group, i.e. ALPA

Being independent of other union groups is viewed by some as a big plus, others as a minus.

The "association" has elected officials at the Pres, VP, Sec/Treasury level & each domicile (7 for SWA) has 2 elected officials that represent the members at quarterly BOD meetings where they vote and decide on various issues that impact the membership (scheduling, budget, respond to various committees)...think of the committees as "staff positions" who do a lot of the worker bee "stuff", these are pilots also.

There is a permanent "staff" who are employees of the union that do the vast majority of the work & are never praised enough since they have to work for pilots:) & put up with our antics as well as the ups & downs of the union, politically that is. They handle with benefits, grievances, retirement issues, communications, etc.

Unions are no doubt a "political group" that have various agendas but the goal of any union is primarily this in my view:
1. Represent the member during contract negotiations with the company by acting as the bargaining agent for ALL members (easy to say, tough to do)...the company has to have someone to negotiate with or else everyone would be paid contract employees with different pay scales, benefits, etc.

2. Act as the member's representative when it comes to the enforcement of the signed contract (your parent so to speak when you get called to the office of the principal for example)....if you have no negotiated contract (see #1) and you have no one who has the ability to persuade the company to enforce the signed contract (#2) you are rather defenseless when it comes to issues involving the health & welfare of your family & yourself.

Do unions/associations do more than the above? Absolutely. Some would argue they shouldn't, some will argue they should. Having been prior military, preconceived ideas of the pros & cons of what a union is and does goes without saying. Thinking of striking pilots marching picket lines, "following the crowd" without a choice, giving money to an organization you have no choice in are not concepts that are easy for ex-military types with normally conservative views to understand...we rebel against that type of logic.

Unions come in all shapes & sizes...they can morph from a worthwhile entity to one of chaos all due to the leadership in the company & the union/association....kind of like a squadron or a wing also....it all gets back to the relationship one has with your commander & the way he/she deals with their peers & superiors....also, leadership & who you allow into your union/company.

These are just my thoughts/comments & don't represent any fancy indoc propaganda on the pros or cons put out by SWAPA. Should what type of relationship a company's union have with the company come into play when you are choosing which airline you wish to work with? I would say yes but in today's environment where job offers are not plentiful that luxury may not exist either I realize.

The recommendations for readings listed by the previous poster are good....they will certainly give you one perspective of the labor relations between management & unions.....I will let you discern your own impression of how the history of labor/management relations relates to today's environment after you have read them. Take from all of my ramblings the following:

Union and management relations don't have to be inherently confrontational. They can be contentious at times but they should remain professional. Without a level of trust between unions/associations and management adversarial tensions increase and hinder the process of finding fair resolutions to issues that would mutually benefit both the company & union/association members.

Jetblue appears to operate well without a union and makes money....82% of employees of Southwest are represented by unions & we make a little money also...Delta is nearly completely non-unionized (except for the pilots) & they aren't doing so well....unions aren't the reasons airlines make money & aren't the reason they lose money, don't get sold a bill of goods that unions=money losers.

If you have other questions feel free to PM me but your question is a good one for new folks looking into this crazy business...its never easy to lob a question like this on anonymous forum!!! But A-10 drivers were never know to be real smart either!!:rolleyes:

Hope that provides a little light (very little I know) and one FO's perspective on an issue that is hard for military types (I'm included in that group also) to understand. Good luck in your Airline Labor 101 study.
 
I'd say of the books listed above....get Hard Landings. I'm not picking on ALPA but Flying the Line I and II are about ALPA and are biased. Hard Landings is an excellent book and will teach you about more than just unions. Besides that, Its a very good read....I couldn't put it down. It reads more like a novel than a history book, you simply can't believe what your reading at times and you'll laugh out loud at other times!
 
Hard Landings is the best. Flying the line is just a bunch of propaganda.
 
Mr Hat said:
I'm not picking on ALPA but Flying the Line I and II are about ALPA and are biased. !

Wrong!


BigMotorToter said:
Flying the line is just a bunch of propaganda

Wrong again!



More message board misinformation; false opinion attempted to be passed on as fact.

George Hopkins initally wrote The Airline Pilots: A Study in Elite Unionization, 1971. He was asked by ALPA to write Flying the Line Vol. I, 1982. An incredible read with some dry spots. However required for anyone who gives 1.95% of their income.

Hopkins was asked again to write the second part, published in 2000, which included deregulation. You think Lorenzo was bad? Read about EL Cord. Also CR Smith whom AMR has named thier beloved museum after.


With copy of Vol II in hand turn to page XII of the Preface.

Hopkins, the books' author writes

JJ O'Donnell [then ALPA's president] asked me to write another history commemorating the unions 50th anniversary. With the understanding that I would give ALPA its history "warts and all," I agreed.

The result was Flying the Line; the First Half Century of the Airline Pilots Association, published in 1982. My interpretation of ALPA's history was not censored. I work for Western Illionis University specifically and for an abstraction called history" generally. Although frankly nervous about the book, O'Donnell understood that prettified "court history" praising the King (so to speak) would be worthless. If pilots were to derive insight from my book, it had to be free to go wherever truth took it.

Hopkins placed his academic career on writing the truth and not being a chump.


Contact your LEC rep and ask for a copy. He might be able to get a complimentry copy. If not what is $10.

Then you can read about how pilots showed up for work, only to be met by an armed guard who escorted them to a company official. This company official handed the pilot both a resignation and an employment application....at a lower wage! (Vol I, chapter 6, page 48)

Coming to work nowadays isn't so bad.

BTW, we are living Vol III right now.....
 
Last edited:
Rez O. Lewshun said:
Wrong!




Wrong again!



More message board misinformation; false opinion attempted to be passed on as fact.

George Hopkins initally wrote The Airline Pilots; A Study in Elite Unionization. He was asked by ALPA to write Flying the Line Vol. I. An incredible read with some dry spots. However required for anyone who gives 1.95% of their income.

Hopkins was asked again to write the second part, which included deregulation. You think Lorenzo was bad? Read about EL Cord. Also CR Smith whom AMR has named thier beloved museum after.


With copy of Vol II in hand turn to page XII of the Preface.




Hopkins placed his academic career on writing the truth and not being a chump.

Now the questions is, are you a chump?

Contact your LEC rep and ask for a copy. He might be able to get a complimentry copy. If not what is $10.

Then you can read about how pilots showed up for work, only to be met by an armed guard who escorted him to a company official. This company official handed the pilot his termination notice and a pilot application....at a lower wage!

Coming to work nowadays isn't so bad.

Yep, when my union airline was bought bought by a non-union operation I went from W2 earnings of $62,000- per year as a 727 Captain, working 15 nights a month, four legs a night for my union (ALPA) job, to W2 earnings of $130,000+ working 12 nights a month, two legs a night for the non union operation. My union job had 30 days vacation @ 2.5 hrs pay per day, non union only 29 days but @ 7 hrs per day.:(
 
Actually we are living Flying the Line IV

Flying the Line III was the RJ years.
Flying the Line IV is post 9/11

Both could fill two books each
 
FoxHunter said:
Yep, when my union airline was bought bought by a non-union operation I went from W2 earnings of $62,000- per year as a 727 Captain, working 15 nights a month, four legs a night for my union (ALPA) job, to W2 earnings of $130,000+ working 12 nights a month, two legs a night for the non union operation. My union job had 30 days vacation @ 2.5 hrs pay per day, non union only 29 days but @ 7 hrs per day.:(

So how's that non-union gig working for ya now? Last I heard you were benefiting from a union, just not paying for it!
 
ironspud said:
Gotta really admire someone that can pull that one off. Kudo's if it's true.
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Do you also give kudos to your buds who skip out when its their turn to buy a round?
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It's just sad, really. . . .
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klhoard said:
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Do you also give kudos to your buds who skip out when its their turn to buy a round?
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It's just sad, really. . . .
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No,,,cuz I don't drink with union thugs.
 
During the first year while on probation, do you still have union dues taken out?
At my company no....but the union will still go to bat for you while on probation. Thats doesn't mean relax, it just means that if you really get into a pickle they will back you the best they can. Which is usually just chatting with the Cheif pilot for you. They have no legal recourse but they can try to talk to management for you.....

I think thats pretty standard.
 

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