Alpa

[Dan Roman]

Albie, howdy, wife and kids doing well I hope?

Two questions, how many airlines have not gone bankrupt that were represented by an ALPA union?

How many other pilot unions have lost BILLION dollar DFR suits?

Score,
You are comparing a union that has dealt with essentially the entire spectrum of commercial aviation and has made far more gains than looses vs SWAPA that has had the luxury of enlightened management while they expanded on the peripheral segment of the industry competing for the low cost traveler over a relatively small segment of airline history. The jury is still out how history will play out with SWA's next step.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

SWA was everybody's last stop for a job....Now? Top of the heap....and they let everybody know it. Thanks to the undercutting SWAPA, Pensions and pay are gone and my management pointed at them as a good example of "productivity". I can't wait for the day when we all have to pay for our ratings......

It is laughable how some on FI forget the history.

 

[scoreboardII]

If ALPA was so good for the industry, why is it so bad?

Why did they allow those companies to drop the pension plans?

Why did they allow their companies to go bankrupt? Why did they outsource to lower paying RJ's which actually cost more in CASM?

If ALPA is so good, then why is the industry in such a sad state?

Please, blame SWA. Yes, blame SWA, because thats your only argument. That and the companies and unions being unable to come to the realization that a free market requires flexibility which neither of your companies nor unions were willing to give. JUst as it appears is happening now with SWA.

 

[slaquer5]

Sacha, you come across as having a real inferiority complex about ALPA.....just saying.

Mybe because alpa sucks and only cares about alpa.


Alpa has ruined many lifes for there cause

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[spitfire1500]

Every thread on this merger...everyone seems to know what Gary Kelly seems to be thinking....I am sure Herb tells him what to think.

 

[spitfire1500]

If ALPA was so good for the industry, why is it so bad?

Why did they allow those companies to drop the pension plans?

Why did they allow their companies to go bankrupt? Why did they outsource to lower paying RJ's which actually cost more in CASM?

If ALPA is so good, then why is the industry in such a sad state?

Please, blame SWA. Yes, blame SWA, because thats your only argument. That and the companies and unions being unable to come to the realization that a free market requires flexibility which neither of your companies nor unions were willing to give. JUst as it appears is happening now with SWA.

re edit.... I have no opinion....

 

[TWA Dude]

They seem to have a one-size-fits-all merger policy, but the trouble is, it almost never fits anybody. They guarantee you'll get all they promised in arbitration, but don't give a crap if you actually get it or not.

That makes no sense whatsoever. ALPA's merger policy is negotiate->mediate->arbitrate. No promises since going to arbitration is always a crapshoot. What possible other methodology could ensure one side doesn't take advantage of the other?

Pilots have proven over and over that given the chance they'll craft an integrated seniority list that "protects" their own and screws the others. Witness AA/TWA and what USAPA is trying to do. You don't want to be compared to either of those scoundrels, do you?

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm not the original author of this, but rather copied this from another forum. It's certainly insightful about ALPA. Maybe originally they served their function well, but now they've essentially become just like a government bureaucracy: bloated, inefficient and wasteful, top-heavy, and out of touch with their actual constituents.

Here's a few ALPA tidbits people tend to forget at moments like this.

-ALPA has signed 13 concessionary contracts in the last 10 years.

-Most ALPA carriers have had pilots on furlough in the last 10 years.

-Every ALPA carrier is heavily vested in codeshare and alliances.

-Most ALPA carriers use PBS (it was invented by the ALPA sched comm guys at old NWA).

-ALPA dues are ~2% and bump to 2.75% when special assessments are needed.

-It is estimated that the total compensation package of the ALPA President exceeds $800K.

-ALPA's myriad VP's earn $3-500K

-ALPA dues revenue goes directly to national and less than 50% is returned to the member carrier in the form of budgetary allotments.

-ALPA was forced to sell their headquarters building to fund the judgement when they lost the PanAm lawsuit.

-ALPA just lost the TWA lawsuit and has nothing more to sell. They can either raise dues rates or file BK.
Obviously they can (and will) appeal, but $1.2 - 1.4 Billion is a lot of change. Put another way, $1.4B / 30k members = almost $47,000 per pilot special assessment.

-The ALPA policy manual states that every member carrier will strive to enact an earnings cap of 85 hours of pay per month for member pilots.
That's a maximum, not a minimum. No working extra for more money.

-ALPA is so dysfunctional that their headquarters staff had to strike and picket during a recent contract negotiation.

-ALPA granted forgiveness and immunity to the Continental scabs in order to re-organize at Continental. It was the first time in AFL-CIO history such an act had ever been done.


​

More recently, let's add that Jetblue just voted 58% to 42% NOT to have ALPA on their property (They had over 95% voter turnout). That means they'd rather have NO union than have ALPA.

Still love ALPA in the house?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

That makes no sense whatsoever. ALPA's merger policy is negotiate->mediate->arbitrate. No promises since going to arbitration is always a crapshoot. What possible other methodology could ensure one side doesn't take advantage of the other?

Pilots have proven over and over that given the chance they'll craft an integrated seniority list that "protects" their own and screws the others. Witness AA/TWA and what USAPA is trying to do. You don't want to be compared to either of those scoundrels, do you?

First, you're right: I certainly don't want to be compared to those scoundrels.

I didn't mean the "negotiate, mediate, arbitrate" part (although in this case, one could argue that ALPA's position has always been stall and push for arbitration). What I meant is that their manner of merger policy (that constituent locals agree to) is based on DOH and Relative seniority, period. Unless the two carriers are EXACTLY equal in age, size, money, etc., these manners are always unfair to one side or the other. If the two carriers ARE equal as I described (age, size, etc.), then DOH and relative should be the same (and probably the fair way to do it). However, in real life, they never are. In real life, no two carriers are exacaly equal. In real life, the two criteria are almost universally contradictory... Just look at your own situation, Mr. America West guy: America West wanted relative to favor themselves; USAir wanted DOH to favor themselves. Those two positions were worlds apart. Why? because the two airlines were worlds apart in nearly every quantifiable descriptive. Both sides just cherry-picked from ALPA what favored them in this case.

As a rule, DOH favors the older company, regardless of company performance or viability. Relative favors the weaker performer, regardless of size (or any other metric, for that matter). Hence, being locked in to one or the other (or both!) ahead of time is an arbitrary prejudgement and inherently unfair in a real life situation.

That's what I meant.

Bubba

 

[TWA Dude]

Bubba:

I guess I'm missing your point. Obviously each side will propose something that benefits them. The arbitrator knows very well what all the issues are affecting each individual merger.

Since you find fault with ALPA's way of integrating what do you propose as a more fair way?