Alpa

[SWA717]

Most of us at Airtran can't wait to get away from ALPO. And the the guys still crying for Arby are delusional.

 

[Sacha]

Fubijaakr does not speak for all of us. I hope you understand that. He is just a ALPA loving trouble maker. Not being able to see the big picture. Many of us GET IT. We are looking forward to this being over and getting rid of ALPA and the trouble they are causing.

The day you start taking advice from a stagnant,junior F/O from Alaska Airlines is the day you might as well kiss your career goodbye.

 

[Sacha]

Two things:

You should take a look at the revised ALPA Merger Policy. It has been recognised by the Chair of the NMB as progessive and a model for other unions and trades. It is anything but a 'one size fits all' policy. And perhaps there are facets of that policy that could be used to advance discussions towards an agreement without an arbitration panel, or at least to preserve agreements in as many areas as possible and to only submit to arbitration narrow issues that remain unresolved.

Second, the enviable relationship and WAWCON at SWA will continue until such time as growth stops and unit costs begin to rise. The decision to acquire ATN was made to facilitate expansion and to provide yet another beach head for revenue growth and to prevent yield erosion.

Life without this merger would look very different for both pilot groups. And that is not meant in a good way.

Two things:

1. Obama is history in a little over 12 months.

2. The NMB and their "Progressive" chair will be the first thing targeted by the
New administration with a Predator Drone. The Boeing 787 fiasco has virtually assured that. Just remember.....Hold the Line!!! The Progressives will Save Us!!!

 

[SWA Bubba]

Fubijaakr does not speak for all of us. I hope you understand that. He is just a ALPA loving trouble maker. Not being able to see the big picture. Many of us GET IT. We are looking forward to this being over and getting rid of ALPA and the trouble they are causing.

I understand that. SWAPA certainly has its share of people with big mouths as well. And, of course, I keep hearing both extremes from Airtran. On the one hand, some ATN guys express sentiments like you have. We have SWA guys that have ATN friends who've called them and said that "80% of ATN pilots wanted the first deal," and "we just want to be there," etc. Heck, you've even got a guy who blogs about this:
www.citruspilot.blogspot.com

On the other hand, ATN has guys who vehemently decry the first deal on this and any other forum, claiming 80% of ATN pilots hated the first deal, and the reason the MEC voted it down was because everyone hated it. Many of these guys use a lot of exclamation points, expletives, and insults (veiled and overt).

Obviously, both sides can't truthfully claim 80% of ATN's rank and file as followers. I suppose we would have found out which side was correct, had ALPA allowed a vote on the AIP.

SWAPA has guys at both ends as well. Would it surprise you Fubijaakr, that there's a vocal group of SWAPA members who want the same thing as you do? They hope ALPA pushes for arbitration and keeps pushing for relative seniority or straight DOH. However, they want this because they believe it will cause GK to pull the SOC and slowly siphon of assests from ATN until it no longer exists. They don't want you integrated at all; they just want you (and the deal) to go away.

On SWAPA's other hand, there's lots of guys who look forward to getting this done, meeting (and working) with new people, etc.

My personal opinion is that the majority of both sides are on the non-vocal side. That's generally true for most situatioins. However, if most ATN folks are like Fubijaakr and Maru657, then I feel sorry for you (them). If this deal goes through, they're gonna' spend the rest of their lives pissed off and bitter, thinking (and proclaiming to anyone who'll listen) that they were screwed over and how they wish Airtran was back the way it was.

Bubba

 

[AlbieF15]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Fudgepacker is starting a new career as a grammer professor anyway

Grammar, Professor?

The day you start taking advice from a stagnant,junior F/O from Alaska Airlines is the day you might as well kiss your career goodbye.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

 

[OldManPilot]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Who do you think keeps getting our MEC pumped up to push for Arbitration and not to look at the consequences for not taking what is offered? You got it, ALPA attorneys. They keep trying to get the MEC to "follow the path"... "take it to arbitration you will do better". They don't look nor hear what is being told to them by SWA management. That is what ALPA brings...

 

[SWA Bubba]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Thanks for the post, Albie. Not trying to diminish positive aspects of what ALPA has accomplished in its history; rather just referring to its role here. The problem with being part of a national union is that a lot of times the national goals and objectives are in conflict with local goals and objectives. I believer that's certainly the case here. ALPA national's strategic positioin appears to be to push straight for arbitration to keep the weight of its precedence in play (win or lose). It doesn't seem to matter that this may not be in the local's best interest. While ALPA does have a long history of doing good in some of the aspects you mentioned, it also has a long history of losing DFR lawsuits. Most recently, losing huge.

Bubba

 

[Andy]

The day you start taking advice from a stagnant,junior F/O from Alaska Airlines is the day you might as well kiss your career goodbye.

Dude, I hope that you're not basing the validity of one's argument based solely on seat and seniority. If so, I got hired at United in Jun 00 and have been furloughed for more than 7 years. That would make my all of my posts absolutely worthless. However I'm sure that some will chime in, using me as an example, and attempt to validate your point.
I prefer to base my opinions on the veracity of one's point of view rather than seat and seniority. There are some very prescient posts by junior pilots and there are some vacuous posts by senior pilots.
And I'm going to take his word for it that Fubi's in the left seat at Alaska - I have no reason to doubt him on that point of contention.

I don't always agree with others but if they present a well constructed argument, I try to show deference to their opinion. Unfortunately, I'm a bit of a hothead so I sometimes spend time mud wrestling rather engaging in intelligent debate. I'm working on that.

 

[Andy]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Albie, there have been very few aviation safety related issues spearheaded by ALPO in the last decade - I would have to verify the origin of TCAS, ASAP, and FOQA but I suspect that they were not the brainchild of ALPO. On the other hand, there have been so many Duty of Fair Representation violations by both ALPO national and each airline's MEC that it almost appears to be institutionalized.

IMHO, ALPO has done more to destroy a profession and turn it into merely a job in the last decade than any exogenous factors.