Alpa

[Sacha]

Dude, I hope that you're not basing the validity of one's argument based solely on seat and seniority. If so, I got hired at United in Jun 00 and have been furloughed for more than 7 years. That would make my all of my posts absolutely worthless. However I'm sure that some will chime in, using me as an example, and attempt to validate your point.
I prefer to base my opinions on the veracity of one's point of view rather than seat and seniority. There are some very prescient posts by junior pilots and there are some vacuous posts by senior pilots.
And I'm going to take his word for it that Fubi's in the left seat at Alaska - I have no reason to doubt him on that point of contention.

I don't always agree with others but if they present a well constructed argument, I try to show deference to their opinion. Unfortunately, I'm a bit of a hothead so I sometimes spend time mud wrestling rather engaging in intelligent debate. I'm working on that.

Dude,

I guess you missed Fudgys 60 or 70 posts that would simply say don't listen to these junior swa F/O third world gear jerkers because they are not as smart and sophisticated in the ways of ALPA as I, CAPT. Fudgy, Senior International 777 Commander.

You did catch that, didn't you? Hence my post.

 

[Kalifornia]

Albie, there have been very few aviation safety related issues spearheaded by ALPO in the last decade - I would have to verify the origin of TCAS, ASAP, and FOQA but I suspect that they were not the brainchild of ALPO. On the other hand, there have been so many Duty of Fair Representation violations by both ALPO national and each airline's MEC that it almost appears to be institutionalized.

IMHO, ALPO has done more to destroy a profession and turn it into merely a job in the last decade than any exogenous factors.

Already said in previous posts, I think you are probably much more in the know and intelligent than other pilots when it comes to the inner workings of deals. Just my opinion you lose credibility with repeating ALPO. Let's put it this way, it's much more complicated to say ALPA is the best or ALPA is the worst. Let's start with the biggest problem, the biggest complainers of ALPA tend to pilots who chose to go the crappiest carriers with ALPA or under the crummiest circumstances. The union only has so much power but it's better than nothing. Independent unions are not the best or the worst. Having no union is walking a tightrope

 

[Andy]

Dude,

I guess you missed Fudgys 60 or 70 posts that would simply say don't listen to these junior swa F/O third world gear jerkers because they are not as smart and sophisticated in the ways of ALPA as I, CAPT. Fudgy, Senior International 777 Commander.

You did catch that, didn't you? Hence my post.

Missed that.

 

[Andy]

Already said in previous posts, I think you are probably much more in the know and intelligent than other pilots when it comes to the inner workings of deals. Just my opinion you lose credibility with repeating ALPO. Let's put it this way, it's much more complicated to say ALPA is the best or ALPA is the worst. Let's start with the biggest problem, the biggest complainers of ALPA tend to pilots who chose to go the crappiest carriers with ALPA or under the crummiest circumstances. The union only has so much power but it's better than nothing. Independent unions are not the best or the worst. Having no union is walking a tightrope

Valid points; I'll take that into consideration. Thanks for the constructive criticism.

 

[Dan Roman]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Spot on Albie. Easily the most insightful post on the whole subject.
I did a stint on the negotiating committee at a small ALPA carrier (Hawaiian) and I can say unequivocally that ALPA National does not dictate to the small airlines the wishes of UAL or DAL. That myth seems to be a common sentiment on here by some of the SWA posters. They are wrong. If AirTran had an independent union they would be free to make they same choices they have as an ALPA carrier. The only difference by being ALPA is they have more resources than they would as a stand alone union and more history to draw from to make their own decisions.
Your comment about trying to make 50,000 people happy is particularly spot on.

 

[Dan Roman]

As far as comparing independent unions effectiveness, APA is not exactly setting the world on fire and USAPA proves it's the memebership that sets the tone, not the particular union they are in. SWAPA is successful because they have had the luxury of enlightened management, if they were ALPA they could have had the same level of success.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dude,

I guess you missed Fudgys 60 or 70 posts that would simply say don't listen to these junior swa F/O third world gear jerkers because they are not as smart and sophisticated in the ways of ALPA as I, CAPT. Fudgy, Senior International 777 Commander.

You did catch that, didn't you? Hence my post.

Sacha, you come across as having a real inferiority complex about ALPA.....just saying.

 

[scoreboardII]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Albie, howdy, wife and kids doing well I hope?

Two questions, how many airlines have not gone bankrupt that were represented by an ALPA union?

How many other pilot unions have lost BILLION dollar DFR suits?

 

[On Your Six]

Fubijaakr does not speak for all of us. I hope you understand that. He is just a ALPA loving trouble maker. Not being able to see the big picture. Many of us GET IT. We are looking forward to this being over and getting rid of ALPA and the trouble they are causing.

I hear the President of France may let you back in if you turn in your used white flag......



OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Albie, howdy, wife and kids doing well I hope?

Two questions, how many airlines have not gone bankrupt that were represented by an ALPA union?

How many other pilot unions have lost BILLION dollar DFR suits?

You all signed the Process Agreement, and now have to deal with it. Sorry!


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[Dan Roman]

Albie, howdy, wife and kids doing well I hope?

Two questions, how many airlines have not gone bankrupt that were represented by an ALPA union?

How many other pilot unions have lost BILLION dollar DFR suits?

Score,
You are comparing a union that has dealt with essentially the entire spectrum of commercial aviation and has made far more gains than looses vs SWAPA that has had the luxury of enlightened management while they expanded on the peripheral segment of the industry competing for the low cost traveler over a relatively small segment of airline history. The jury is still out how history will play out with SWA's next step.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

SWA was everybody's last stop for a job....Now? Top of the heap....and they let everybody know it. Thanks to the undercutting SWAPA, Pensions and pay are gone and my management pointed at them as a good example of "productivity". I can't wait for the day when we all have to pay for our ratings......

It is laughable how some on FI forget the history.

 

[scoreboardII]

If ALPA was so good for the industry, why is it so bad?

Why did they allow those companies to drop the pension plans?

Why did they allow their companies to go bankrupt? Why did they outsource to lower paying RJ's which actually cost more in CASM?

If ALPA is so good, then why is the industry in such a sad state?

Please, blame SWA. Yes, blame SWA, because thats your only argument. That and the companies and unions being unable to come to the realization that a free market requires flexibility which neither of your companies nor unions were willing to give. JUst as it appears is happening now with SWA.

 

[slaquer5]

Sacha, you come across as having a real inferiority complex about ALPA.....just saying.

Mybe because alpa sucks and only cares about alpa.


Alpa has ruined many lifes for there cause

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[spitfire1500]

Every thread on this merger...everyone seems to know what Gary Kelly seems to be thinking....I am sure Herb tells him what to think.

 

[spitfire1500]

If ALPA was so good for the industry, why is it so bad?

Why did they allow those companies to drop the pension plans?

Why did they allow their companies to go bankrupt? Why did they outsource to lower paying RJ's which actually cost more in CASM?

If ALPA is so good, then why is the industry in such a sad state?

Please, blame SWA. Yes, blame SWA, because thats your only argument. That and the companies and unions being unable to come to the realization that a free market requires flexibility which neither of your companies nor unions were willing to give. JUst as it appears is happening now with SWA.

re edit.... I have no opinion....

 

[TWA Dude]

They seem to have a one-size-fits-all merger policy, but the trouble is, it almost never fits anybody. They guarantee you'll get all they promised in arbitration, but don't give a crap if you actually get it or not.

That makes no sense whatsoever. ALPA's merger policy is negotiate->mediate->arbitrate. No promises since going to arbitration is always a crapshoot. What possible other methodology could ensure one side doesn't take advantage of the other?

Pilots have proven over and over that given the chance they'll craft an integrated seniority list that "protects" their own and screws the others. Witness AA/TWA and what USAPA is trying to do. You don't want to be compared to either of those scoundrels, do you?

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm not the original author of this, but rather copied this from another forum. It's certainly insightful about ALPA. Maybe originally they served their function well, but now they've essentially become just like a government bureaucracy: bloated, inefficient and wasteful, top-heavy, and out of touch with their actual constituents.

Here's a few ALPA tidbits people tend to forget at moments like this.

-ALPA has signed 13 concessionary contracts in the last 10 years.

-Most ALPA carriers have had pilots on furlough in the last 10 years.

-Every ALPA carrier is heavily vested in codeshare and alliances.

-Most ALPA carriers use PBS (it was invented by the ALPA sched comm guys at old NWA).

-ALPA dues are ~2% and bump to 2.75% when special assessments are needed.

-It is estimated that the total compensation package of the ALPA President exceeds $800K.

-ALPA's myriad VP's earn $3-500K

-ALPA dues revenue goes directly to national and less than 50% is returned to the member carrier in the form of budgetary allotments.

-ALPA was forced to sell their headquarters building to fund the judgement when they lost the PanAm lawsuit.

-ALPA just lost the TWA lawsuit and has nothing more to sell. They can either raise dues rates or file BK.
Obviously they can (and will) appeal, but $1.2 - 1.4 Billion is a lot of change. Put another way, $1.4B / 30k members = almost $47,000 per pilot special assessment.

-The ALPA policy manual states that every member carrier will strive to enact an earnings cap of 85 hours of pay per month for member pilots.
That's a maximum, not a minimum. No working extra for more money.

-ALPA is so dysfunctional that their headquarters staff had to strike and picket during a recent contract negotiation.

-ALPA granted forgiveness and immunity to the Continental scabs in order to re-organize at Continental. It was the first time in AFL-CIO history such an act had ever been done.


​

More recently, let's add that Jetblue just voted 58% to 42% NOT to have ALPA on their property (They had over 95% voter turnout). That means they'd rather have NO union than have ALPA.

Still love ALPA in the house?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

That makes no sense whatsoever. ALPA's merger policy is negotiate->mediate->arbitrate. No promises since going to arbitration is always a crapshoot. What possible other methodology could ensure one side doesn't take advantage of the other?

Pilots have proven over and over that given the chance they'll craft an integrated seniority list that "protects" their own and screws the others. Witness AA/TWA and what USAPA is trying to do. You don't want to be compared to either of those scoundrels, do you?

First, you're right: I certainly don't want to be compared to those scoundrels.

I didn't mean the "negotiate, mediate, arbitrate" part (although in this case, one could argue that ALPA's position has always been stall and push for arbitration). What I meant is that their manner of merger policy (that constituent locals agree to) is based on DOH and Relative seniority, period. Unless the two carriers are EXACTLY equal in age, size, money, etc., these manners are always unfair to one side or the other. If the two carriers ARE equal as I described (age, size, etc.), then DOH and relative should be the same (and probably the fair way to do it). However, in real life, they never are. In real life, no two carriers are exacaly equal. In real life, the two criteria are almost universally contradictory... Just look at your own situation, Mr. America West guy: America West wanted relative to favor themselves; USAir wanted DOH to favor themselves. Those two positions were worlds apart. Why? because the two airlines were worlds apart in nearly every quantifiable descriptive. Both sides just cherry-picked from ALPA what favored them in this case.

As a rule, DOH favors the older company, regardless of company performance or viability. Relative favors the weaker performer, regardless of size (or any other metric, for that matter). Hence, being locked in to one or the other (or both!) ahead of time is an arbitrary prejudgement and inherently unfair in a real life situation.

That's what I meant.

Bubba

 

[TWA Dude]

Bubba:

I guess I'm missing your point. Obviously each side will propose something that benefits them. The arbitrator knows very well what all the issues are affecting each individual merger.

Since you find fault with ALPA's way of integrating what do you propose as a more fair way?