Alpa

[Fubijaakr]

Fudgepacker is starting a new career as a grammer professor anyway

Grammar, Professor?

The day you start taking advice from a stagnant,junior F/O from Alaska Airlines is the day you might as well kiss your career goodbye.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

 

[OldManPilot]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Who do you think keeps getting our MEC pumped up to push for Arbitration and not to look at the consequences for not taking what is offered? You got it, ALPA attorneys. They keep trying to get the MEC to "follow the path"... "take it to arbitration you will do better". They don't look nor hear what is being told to them by SWA management. That is what ALPA brings...

 

[SWA Bubba]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Thanks for the post, Albie. Not trying to diminish positive aspects of what ALPA has accomplished in its history; rather just referring to its role here. The problem with being part of a national union is that a lot of times the national goals and objectives are in conflict with local goals and objectives. I believer that's certainly the case here. ALPA national's strategic positioin appears to be to push straight for arbitration to keep the weight of its precedence in play (win or lose). It doesn't seem to matter that this may not be in the local's best interest. While ALPA does have a long history of doing good in some of the aspects you mentioned, it also has a long history of losing DFR lawsuits. Most recently, losing huge.

Bubba

 

[Andy]

The day you start taking advice from a stagnant,junior F/O from Alaska Airlines is the day you might as well kiss your career goodbye.

Dude, I hope that you're not basing the validity of one's argument based solely on seat and seniority. If so, I got hired at United in Jun 00 and have been furloughed for more than 7 years. That would make my all of my posts absolutely worthless. However I'm sure that some will chime in, using me as an example, and attempt to validate your point.
I prefer to base my opinions on the veracity of one's point of view rather than seat and seniority. There are some very prescient posts by junior pilots and there are some vacuous posts by senior pilots.
And I'm going to take his word for it that Fubi's in the left seat at Alaska - I have no reason to doubt him on that point of contention.

I don't always agree with others but if they present a well constructed argument, I try to show deference to their opinion. Unfortunately, I'm a bit of a hothead so I sometimes spend time mud wrestling rather engaging in intelligent debate. I'm working on that.

 

[Andy]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Albie, there have been very few aviation safety related issues spearheaded by ALPO in the last decade - I would have to verify the origin of TCAS, ASAP, and FOQA but I suspect that they were not the brainchild of ALPO. On the other hand, there have been so many Duty of Fair Representation violations by both ALPO national and each airline's MEC that it almost appears to be institutionalized.

IMHO, ALPO has done more to destroy a profession and turn it into merely a job in the last decade than any exogenous factors.

 

[Sacha]

Dude, I hope that you're not basing the validity of one's argument based solely on seat and seniority. If so, I got hired at United in Jun 00 and have been furloughed for more than 7 years. That would make my all of my posts absolutely worthless. However I'm sure that some will chime in, using me as an example, and attempt to validate your point.
I prefer to base my opinions on the veracity of one's point of view rather than seat and seniority. There are some very prescient posts by junior pilots and there are some vacuous posts by senior pilots.
And I'm going to take his word for it that Fubi's in the left seat at Alaska - I have no reason to doubt him on that point of contention.

I don't always agree with others but if they present a well constructed argument, I try to show deference to their opinion. Unfortunately, I'm a bit of a hothead so I sometimes spend time mud wrestling rather engaging in intelligent debate. I'm working on that.

Dude,

I guess you missed Fudgys 60 or 70 posts that would simply say don't listen to these junior swa F/O third world gear jerkers because they are not as smart and sophisticated in the ways of ALPA as I, CAPT. Fudgy, Senior International 777 Commander.

You did catch that, didn't you? Hence my post.

 

[Kalifornia]

Albie, there have been very few aviation safety related issues spearheaded by ALPO in the last decade - I would have to verify the origin of TCAS, ASAP, and FOQA but I suspect that they were not the brainchild of ALPO. On the other hand, there have been so many Duty of Fair Representation violations by both ALPO national and each airline's MEC that it almost appears to be institutionalized.

IMHO, ALPO has done more to destroy a profession and turn it into merely a job in the last decade than any exogenous factors.

Already said in previous posts, I think you are probably much more in the know and intelligent than other pilots when it comes to the inner workings of deals. Just my opinion you lose credibility with repeating ALPO. Let's put it this way, it's much more complicated to say ALPA is the best or ALPA is the worst. Let's start with the biggest problem, the biggest complainers of ALPA tend to pilots who chose to go the crappiest carriers with ALPA or under the crummiest circumstances. The union only has so much power but it's better than nothing. Independent unions are not the best or the worst. Having no union is walking a tightrope

 

[Andy]

Dude,

I guess you missed Fudgys 60 or 70 posts that would simply say don't listen to these junior swa F/O third world gear jerkers because they are not as smart and sophisticated in the ways of ALPA as I, CAPT. Fudgy, Senior International 777 Commander.

You did catch that, didn't you? Hence my post.

Missed that.

 

[Andy]

Already said in previous posts, I think you are probably much more in the know and intelligent than other pilots when it comes to the inner workings of deals. Just my opinion you lose credibility with repeating ALPO. Let's put it this way, it's much more complicated to say ALPA is the best or ALPA is the worst. Let's start with the biggest problem, the biggest complainers of ALPA tend to pilots who chose to go the crappiest carriers with ALPA or under the crummiest circumstances. The union only has so much power but it's better than nothing. Independent unions are not the best or the worst. Having no union is walking a tightrope

Valid points; I'll take that into consideration. Thanks for the constructive criticism.

 

[Dan Roman]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Spot on Albie. Easily the most insightful post on the whole subject.
I did a stint on the negotiating committee at a small ALPA carrier (Hawaiian) and I can say unequivocally that ALPA National does not dictate to the small airlines the wishes of UAL or DAL. That myth seems to be a common sentiment on here by some of the SWA posters. They are wrong. If AirTran had an independent union they would be free to make they same choices they have as an ALPA carrier. The only difference by being ALPA is they have more resources than they would as a stand alone union and more history to draw from to make their own decisions.
Your comment about trying to make 50,000 people happy is particularly spot on.

 

[Dan Roman]

As far as comparing independent unions effectiveness, APA is not exactly setting the world on fire and USAPA proves it's the memebership that sets the tone, not the particular union they are in. SWAPA is successful because they have had the luxury of enlightened management, if they were ALPA they could have had the same level of success.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dude,

I guess you missed Fudgys 60 or 70 posts that would simply say don't listen to these junior swa F/O third world gear jerkers because they are not as smart and sophisticated in the ways of ALPA as I, CAPT. Fudgy, Senior International 777 Commander.

You did catch that, didn't you? Hence my post.

Sacha, you come across as having a real inferiority complex about ALPA.....just saying.

 

[scoreboardII]

Having done some work for ALPA on our property and at National, I'd like to offer up that ALPA ain't the enemy here. What Airtran pilots do or do not do according to their bylaws really isn't up to ALPA National. Its up to the Airtran MEC. The NPA or whoever was there prior could have done the same thing.

Feel free to hash out your own troubles, but there has been no bigger safety advocate or supporter of the airline career than ALPA. I have personally visited dozens of senate and house offices discussing the FAA reauthorization bill, hazardous cargo issues, etc along with a bunch of other hard working LINE pilots. No organization is perfect, and I didn't like the Age 60 support by either ALPA or SWAPA. But c'mon...a lot of what is GOOD in airline contracts came from years of ALPA efforts. Places like FedEx (non union until early 90s) and SWA (in house union) modeled many of the aspects of their contracts on what other carriers had...which came with the help from ALPA. So--fight if you want about your lists, but if you are going to keep bashing ALPA don't forgot that TCAS, ASAP, FOQA, and a host of other good things in this industry have gotten a lot of support and voice on the Hill because of ALPA's efforts. I don't think any organization will ever be able to make 50,000 pilots completely satisfied, but ignoring the contributions the organization has made over the years is short sighted and overlooks a lot of positive history.

Albie, howdy, wife and kids doing well I hope?

Two questions, how many airlines have not gone bankrupt that were represented by an ALPA union?

How many other pilot unions have lost BILLION dollar DFR suits?

 

[On Your Six]

Fubijaakr does not speak for all of us. I hope you understand that. He is just a ALPA loving trouble maker. Not being able to see the big picture. Many of us GET IT. We are looking forward to this being over and getting rid of ALPA and the trouble they are causing.

I hear the President of France may let you back in if you turn in your used white flag......



OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Albie, howdy, wife and kids doing well I hope?

Two questions, how many airlines have not gone bankrupt that were represented by an ALPA union?

How many other pilot unions have lost BILLION dollar DFR suits?

You all signed the Process Agreement, and now have to deal with it. Sorry!


Godspeed!


OYS