ALPA Welcomes CommutAir Pilots!!!

[Metro752]

Whatever Rick

 

[Nevets]

The 'hardly ever done' note is interesting for it's the same rationale SkyWesters use for remaining union-free but that comes under fire for "what can be" and "what is" arguments. The original post said something along the lines of welcome to self-governance...I simply do not think that is the case; perhaps self-empowered to recommend change I'd buy. Also, I thought there were external rules--a national Constitution--that goverened actions of both MECs and members; any amount of external control limits self-governement.

The difference on the 'hardly ever done' argument is that ALPA members have a recourse, Skw pilots don't. The ALPA president can always be recalled at any moment. Also, at least the ALPA pilots are "self-empowered to recommend change." That cannot be said of all pilots. And the last thing, all rules can be changed by ALPA pilots, including the constitution and by-laws, administrative manual, and MEC policy manuals.

 

[Nevets]

Dispatch ticket never expires.

Neither does a pilot's. Whats your point?

 

[DX Rick]

Neither does a pilot's. Whats your point?

What I ment is that we don't have to take a recurrent or anything like that. Once we've passed the practical, that's the last exam we have to take.
Seeing that haven't had a job as a 121 dispatcher in 3 years, I could go right back doing it without having to test.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Local MECs cannot change anything at-will, in fact I'd be willing to bet they can change little of their own accord, without either involving national or airline management. The 'hardly ever done' note is interesting for it's the same rationale SkyWesters use for remaining union-free but that comes under fire for "what can be" and "what is" arguments. The original post said something along the lines of welcome to self-governance...I simply do not think that is the case; perhaps self-empowered to recommend change I'd buy. Also, I thought there were external rules--a national Constitution--that goverened actions of both MECs and members; any amount of external control limits self-governement. I'm just squawking over the use of the term--it's misleading if not incorrect. It is representation and quasi-governance, but from what little I know/infer, not self-governing.

I agree that MECs frequently have to involve airline management to invoke change, but every MEC is very independent from ALPA National. They only time ALPA National would ever involve themselves in a local matter is if you were seriously acting to the detriment of the profession (ie "we'll fly the 757 for $16/hour for captains).

I see what you're saying about the use of the term though.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Um....the self-governance construct suggests the ability to directly make change in one's environment without the need for external approval; it is entirely an internal locus of control. Representation is the ability to influence the decision-makers but cannot exact change alone; it implicitly admits external locus of control. If MECs could make change on their own, they would not need ALPA not would they have to confer with management to seek changes to whatever ails them. I think union membership is more akin to a representative democracy...have a say, but the outcome is dependent on those who you vote on, and those who you do not (checks/balances).

Sounds like our gov't

 

[trainer8]

I'm not insulting those who aren't members. I'm insulting USCABA supporters specifically.

Just following the ALPA Code of Ethics, as usual.

 

[SERPICO]

Yeah, the retards are leaving and the intelligent are joining.

I would not be suprised if that little speech took you all day to put together. Charming!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Um....the self-governance construct suggests the ability to directly make change in one's environment without the need for external approval; it is entirely an internal locus of control. Representation is the ability to influence the decision-makers but cannot exact change alone; it implicitly admits external locus of control. If MECs could make change on their own, they would not need ALPA not would they have to confer with management to seek changes to whatever ails them. I think union membership is more akin to a representative democracy...have a say, but the outcome is dependent on those who you vote on, and those who you do not (checks/balances).

and I replied...

sounds like our gov't

And that is the point.... We love our freedom. Our American Democracy. We love to tell ourselves that we are the best country in the world.. that we self govern ourselves. we don't have dictators or communist rule. Our 230+ year experiment in democracy is going quite well....



However, in actuality.... our practice is much different than our ideals. We love the rewards but don't really care for the responsibility...



The Skywest pilots have had opportunity to be good Americans. To vote for self government. To have checks and balances... But they shunned their rights to function more like citizens of a communist state... right-less.


You know what rights are, what self government is, what responsibility is, what freedom is... but yet you choose the Burqa.....



Congrats to the Commutair pilots... that is about as American as it gets.....

 

[Sky Jet]

Holy Crap Batman. Either hell just froze over or PLB just thawed out. I honestly never thought I would live to see the day that CommutAir went union. Everytime I ever brought it up it went like a fart in chuch. I can not think of a managment that deserved it more.

Jet (CommutAir 1991-1998)

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Rez:

That's one of the dumber analogies I've read. If you think local ALPA MECs are self-governing, you're smoking crack [sure they can vote, but what can they 'do'?]. Make a change to your contract unilaterally [either without management or national approval] and I'd believe that unionization in general is a self-contained democracy. If we infact voted for non-representation here at SKYW, are not our rights secured in a democratic, will-of-the-people manner? Your's are constrained by external forces, and while our 'rights' could be violated, that has not happened to the extent of most other carriers, even with the 'you'll get what's coming to yours' doomsday everyone wishes on SkyWest. Your argument and analogies are weak.

Incidentally, Americans don't vote on self-government but they do participate in the process; it is the Constitution that mandates a government by the people [and called for by the DoI], and I'm pretty sure none of us had a chance to vote in ratification of the USC. Sorta like forced membership in unions that exist prior to your joining a particular airline: you can either be active or not, but you're going to fall under the jurisdiction and the results of their actions regardless.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:

That's one of the dumber analogies I've read.

Of course it is... being compared to a communist subject or an Afgani woman in a burqa isn't very complimenting... especially to someone who flies high performance jets..

If you think local ALPA MECs are self-governing, you're smoking crack [sure they can vote, but what can they 'do'?].

The local MEC's manage their own house. In addition they are members of the Executive Board which address National issues.

They are sort of like State and Federal congressmen.

Make a change to your contract unilaterally [either without management or national approval]

Yes... MEC's can change their contracts, with agreement with management. They don't need Nat'l approval. Just a vote within the local council.

and I'd believe that unionization in general is a self-contained democracy.

It is.

If we infact voted for non-representation here at SKYW, are not our rights secured in a democratic, will-of-the-people manner?

What rights? All you did was give up the right to your rights. It is like rejecting a lawyer at the police station.

It is like not having representation at a house closing.

Individual rights and representation are the corner stone of our Constitution and American Way of life.

Just because you waive your rights doesn't mean you have rights...

Your's are constrained by external forces, and while our 'rights' could be violated, that has not happened to the extent of most other carriers, even with the 'you'll get what's coming to yours' doomsday everyone wishes on SkyWest.

External forces? What does that mean? Market forces? Legal forces?

Whereas you are constrained by internal forces... the whim of Jerry.

Your rights are constantly violated... they are done slowly and covertly... and when they are violated what do you do? NOTHING! Because you can do nothing.. you have no rights....

The doomsday that everyone wishes on Skywest is really just the fact that OO pilots are not respected.

Your argument and analogies are weak.

No.. they're not. Our constitution is an exclusive way of life. It is how we conduct self rule in this country. We mirror this in other organizations such as HOA's and labor unions.

Incidentally, Americans don't vote on self-government but they do participate in the process; it is the Constitution that mandates a government by the people [and called for by the DoI], and I'm pretty sure none of us had a chance to vote in ratification of the USC.

That is right... is there a better way?

Sorta like forced membership in unions that exist prior to your joining a particular airline: you can either be active or not, but you're going to fall under the jurisdiction and the results of their actions regardless.

No one is forced into a union.... We all have free will. Some of us understand better than others.

If you move to a town, you accept that towns laws. If you shop at a store, you accept that company's policies. If you apply at an airline with a union you accept that company's agreement. See... free will... its not that hard...


Where you forced to be an American? Or were you just born that way?

Let's not pretend you are something that you are not. You've rejected Americanism, democracy and self rule. You are the royal subject of King Jerry. You have waived your rights.... How unamerican all while you free load and benefit off the hard work of real professionals that make your jobs more safe.