ALPA vs ALPA merger

[Bambam]

What does ALPA merger policy say about an ALPA/ALPA merger with respect to itegration? Any Delta/NWA guys remember?

Just curious what the possible Jetblue/Virgin America scenarios could be.

 

[Jim]

Relative seniority taking into account career expectations. Since both airlines are narrowbody Airbus, the career expectations should be equal.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

Money begets Money

 

[maru657]

Hard to say what ALPA's policy is now. Up untill the 80's it was date of hire but it fell apart during de-regulation. It's the major reason no large ALPA carrier has been able to strike. Think of it like this, if Delta or Southwest were to strike I don't think the company would have a hard time hiring replacement pilots.

 

[Jim]

Hard to say what ALPA's policy is now.

No it's not. It's right in the ALPA policy manual.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Hard to say what ALPA's policy is now. Up untill the 80's it was date of hire but it fell apart during de-regulation. It's the major reason no large ALPA carrier has been able to strike. Think of it like this, if Delta or Southwest were to strike I don't think the company would have a hard time hiring replacement pilots.

No it's not. It's right in the ALPA policy manual.

Holy cow! Maru said something stupid and completely wrong? Who could possibly have seen that coming?

And more, he then tied that to something completely unrelated, as if he thought that one lie could make another, unrelated lie become true. What are the odds?!

Shocking, I tell you. Shocking.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA Merger Policy lays out a process and several guidelines, but doesn't have a methodology for integration. In practice, Jim is correct about relative seniority playing a large factor in most arbitrator decisions, but it's not codified in ALPA Merger Policy.

Merger Policy follows a simple formula:

1. Direct negotiations between the two pilot merger committees to try to reach a deal

2. If that fails, go to mediation to see if a mediator can assist in reaching a consensual deal

3. If that still doesn't work, go to arbitration, and arbitrators are directed to take into account various factors such as career expectations.

For a JetBlue/Virgin merger, expect largely straight ratio within status (captain and FO) with maybe some extra slotting near the top for JetBlue pilots to account for a pilot group with a longer average length of service, but not much.

 

[HowardBorden]

ALPA Merger Policy lays out a process and several guidelines, but doesn't have a methodology for integration. In practice, Jim is correct about relative seniority playing a large factor in most arbitrator decisions, but it's not codified in ALPA Merger Policy.

Merger Policy follows a simple formula:

1. Direct negotiations between the two pilot merger committees to try to reach a deal

2. If that fails, go to mediation to see if a mediator can assist in reaching a consensual deal

3. If that still doesn't work, go to arbitration, and arbitrators are directed to take into account various factors such as career expectations.

For a JetBlue/Virgin merger, expect largely straight ratio within status (captain and FO) with maybe some extra slotting near the top for JetBlue pilots to account for a pilot group with a longer average length of service, but not much.

Your prognostications have proven to be incredibly insightful in the past.

 

[PCL_128]

Indeed they have. Just look at the quote in one of your coworker's signature line of me predicting the screwing of the AirTran pilots years in advance.

 

[Old School 737]

Anybody want to speculate how the Alaska purchase of Virgin .. Would go merger wise ..

 

[AK737FO]

Poorly...

If a 8 year VA Captain ends up being senior to a 10 year AS Captain (let alone a 30+ year Captain) - the wheels on the bus will not go round and round.

Then, just for fun, throw in contract negotiations before all the paint has dried on this merger.

Of course, management could throw a big pile of cash on the table to fix our hourly wage problem while asking for a 2 to 4 year extension to get through the merger.

I can't believe Brad and the boys are doing this. Sad, sad, sad...

 

[Old School 737]

Defensive move ..?? Good way to take on cheap debt .. ?? I don't know .. But merging a old company and a new one with such different longevity in seats .. Ugh ..

 

[flythere]

Who says they would go senior?? Just give them date of hire and merge the lists accordingly!! Their most senior capt will have what 8-9 yrs on the list.

How could a 4 yr capt at VA expect to waltz into SEA and keep his same position, especially during a buyout! If it were a merger, then all bets would be off!!

And it also depends on what is in the fine print of this agreement and what our brave, fearless ALPA reps have agreed to as well.

I would be more leary and nervous of the latter!

 

[maru657]

The point is how will the Alaska MEC approach this? It should be obvious that if done with some degree of fairness Alaska/Virgin will come out of the gate ready to compete.
If they screw it up Southwest will be "Stapling" them next.

 

[Old School 737]

2.5 billion signed on Friday .. Announce tomorrow before markets open I hear ..

 

[flythere]

The point is how will the Alaska MEC approach this? It should be obvious that if done with some degree of fairness Alaska/Virgin will come out of the gate ready to compete.
If they screw it up Southwest will be "Stapling" them next.

The MEC is the wild card, if recent history means anything, the MEC may not do what's in the pilots best interest!!

 

[Old School 737]

Date of hire with a blend similar to the jet America merger?? 3-1 or so??

 

[Ocity]

2.5 billion signed on Friday .. Announce tomorrow before markets open I hear ..

2.5 billion for 8 airbus and a slot to DCA?!! WTF are they thinking?!! This could be disastrous. I have a feeling all of the puzzle pieces haven't been shown yet.

 

[flythere]

That seems to be precedence. I can imagine a fence for a 1-2 yr period until the dust settles. Then start an integration period as they phase out the scare-buses. I could only assume hiring at the eskimo will stop for a while, at least 4-5 yrs until the integration is complete.

As AS takes on more Boeing planes and the buses leave, training will take place, at a rate of 10-15 a month converting their crews. The guess is once this starts happening, AS will start flying those VA routes!

Any other rumors????

 

[Old School 737]

2.5 billion for 8 airbus and a slot to DCA?!! WTF are they thinking?!! This could be disastrous. I have a feeling all of the puzzle pieces haven't been shown yet.

You forgot about the love field slot !
I was wondering if it's possible that the Asian carrier that was interested might be a player in this as well !!?! To fill in the pieces you speak of ..

 

[flythere]

You forgot about the love field slot !
I was wondering if it's possible that the Asian carrier that was interested might be a player in this as well !!?! To fill in the pieces you speak of ..

Wasn't BT, JH and some other players in China within the last month or so meeting with a Chinese carrier?

Here's another option;

Why would AS give or lease those scare-buses to JB? So JB could use them against AS, like Allegiant did with the MD-80's. What about Boeing taking those buses in a deal with AS to buy or lease 10-15 767ER's?? Those 767's would be used to fly international out of SEA, SFO, LAX and JFK. Boeing is having a fire-side sale on 767's, they are trying to keep the line going.

AS would be able to start feeding its own international flights to Asia and Europe. That combined with the code share agreements with other foreign carriers makes for interesting fodder huh?!?!

 

[flythere]

Well, it's a done deal! 2.6 Bil/$57 a share! Interesting tid-bit, AK is signaling they may want to keep the scare-buses initially, training mx folks to work on them.

 

[msmb]

Date of hire then put them in the stack on some kind of ratio ... With fences on equipment

 

[Old School 737]

Date of hire then put them in the stack on some kind of ratio ... With fences on equipment

Why fences .. I might want to bid the bus !

 

[Old School 737]

But seriously I don't see the company wanting any Alaska guys moving over to the bus .. But want the Virgin guys moving over to the Boeing ...

 

[flythere]

But seriously I don't see the company wanting any Alaska guys moving over to the bus .. But want the Virgin guys moving over to the Boeing ...

I think you are correct! The only caveat being if they decide to keep those scare-buses long term, until the leases expire! Then I could see a JFK or SFO scare-bus base. That would allow them to still operate the buses, taking advantage of the leases and lower operating costs,(no heavy checks etc) especially if they are still under some type of incentive deal from Toulouse.

That would keep a MX base with those airplanes, my guess would be JFK, gives them an east coast base to perform daily checks and light mx. Plus it's closer to the heavy mx base on the east coast.

 

[Full of LUV]

Wasn't BT, JH and some other players in China within the last month or so meeting with a Chinese carrier?

Here's another option;

Why would AS give or lease those scare-buses to JB? So JB could use them against AS, like Allegiant did with the MD-80's. What about Boeing taking those buses in a deal with AS to buy or lease 10-15 767ER's?? Those 767's would be used to fly international out of SEA, SFO, LAX and JFK. Boeing is having a fire-side sale on 767's, they are trying to keep the line going.

AS would be able to start feeding its own international flights to Asia and Europe. That combined with the code share agreements with other foreign carriers makes for interesting fodder huh?!?!

The day AS buys 767's or any widebody and starts flying international out of SEA, SFO, LAX, and JFK will be the end of many code share deals they presently have.
AS will have to decide whether it wants to be a code share $#@#$ to every foreign airline looking to do business in the US or become it's own flag carrier.

 

[maru657]

Code sharing with a foriegn carrier has its benefits. At least you can reasonably assume they won't try to "merge" you and tack your pilots onto the bottom of someone else's seniority list.

 

[BeachBummer]

The day AS buys 767's or any widebody and starts flying international out of SEA, SFO, LAX, and JFK will be the end of many code share deals they presently have.
AS will have to decide whether it wants to be a code share $#@#$ to every foreign airline looking to do business in the US or become it's own flag carrier.

Sucks that DAL UAL and AA don't code share with any other foreign carriers. AK would be hosed if they got bigger planes.

 

[Flyer1015]

ALPA Merger Policy lays out a process and several guidelines, but doesn't have a methodology for integration. In practice, Jim is correct about relative seniority playing a large factor in most arbitrator decisions, but it's not codified in ALPA Merger Policy.

Merger Policy follows a simple formula:

1. Direct negotiations between the two pilot merger committees to try to reach a deal

2. If that fails, go to mediation to see if a mediator can assist in reaching a consensual deal

3. If that still doesn't work, go to arbitration, and arbitrators are directed to take into account various factors such as career expectations.

For a JetBlue/Virgin merger, expect largely straight ratio within status (captain and FO) with maybe some extra slotting near the top for JetBlue pilots to account for a pilot group with a longer average length of service, but not much.

What would you say for AS-VX?