ALPA Unit 2

[Flyerjosh]

So here's my thought on the subject. We all know that the admin staff at ALPA is striking and that they want competitive salaries (which in the DC area runs in the vicinity of between 35-70K depending on the company and the particular job set for admin workers).

What I want to know is WHY does ALPA employ so many admin staff in Northern VA in the first place? It seems rather silly to me that Herndon is the corporate headquarters of ALPA.

Now before you all jump on me about the whole political organization thing, let me say that I understand that ALPA needs to have a Washington DC presence. But isn't that what the downtown offices are for?

Why not move all of the admin functions (like MEC support and membership and newsletter--- anything not politically affiliated) to somewhere cheaper?

I'm all for competitive wages and fair salaries, but there also has to be some fiscal responsibility on the part of the union (it is after all membership dues that pay these salaries). If the job can be done in a smaller city (say Richmond, Albany, or even Bismarck, ND) why not? In this day and age of internet and teleconference, there's no reason that support staff needs to be in DC- besides how often do the execs interact with the desk jockies in Herndon anyway?

If ALPA were to move a lot of these functions elsewhere I bet there would be significant savings in both labor and real estate costs.

Just a thought...

 

[JTrain]

So here's my thought on the subject. We all know that the admin staff at ALPA is striking and that they want competitive salaries (which in the DC area runs in the vicinity of between 35-70K depending on the company and the particular job set for admin workers).

What I want to know is WHY does ALPA employ so many admin staff in Northern VA in the first place? It seems rather silly to me that Herndon is the corporate headquarters of ALPA.

Now before you all jump on me about the whole political organization thing, let me say that I understand that ALPA needs to have a Washington DC presence. But isn't that what the downtown offices are for?

Why not move all of the admin functions (like MEC support and membership and newsletter--- anything not politically affiliated) to somewhere cheaper?

I'm all for competitive wages and fair salaries, but there also has to be some fiscal responsibility on the part of the union (it is after all membership dues that pay these salaries). If the job can be done in a smaller city (say Richmond, Albany, or even Bismarck, ND) why not? In this day and age of internet and teleconference, there's no reason that support staff needs to be in DC- besides how often do the execs interact with the desk jockies in Herndon anyway?

If ALPA were to move a lot of these functions elsewhere I bet there would be significant savings in both labor and real estate costs.

Just a thought...

Amen on the real estate front. I can only imagine how much that Herndon office building they have is worth. Even if they are renting it, I'm sure they're paying a boatload, since anything in Northern VA is mega-expensive. That Northern VA cost most definitely carries over to the countless other business expenses there are in the area, including labor. I'm sure they could get equally qualified staff somewhere else stateside.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

When ALPA was formed by a UAL pilot named Behnke he set up shop in Chicago. But he spent over 50% of his time in DC. ALPA realized the need for a DC presence. If you want to play ball with the players you have to go to the field. The field doesn't come to you. (unless you are Chuck Norris)

In addition Behnke wanted to build his own ALPA building and went overboard with the plans and specifications. All of you cynics would be all over ALPA like a cheap suit for being excessive on a grandiose building. If you have been to the Herndon or even the DC building you will see it isn't very posh. Quite plain jane in my opinion. Besides if the buidling was beautiful, again you cynics would be whining in your Wheaties daily....

ALPA actually made some good real estate decisions a few back and the Herndon building is a great deal for the Association. While you may think having the Herndon Admin building in Minot , ND is a good idea, there are many times when the staff is used in person and directly....

So, how much should ALPA spend on airfare to shuttle staffers from Minot, ND to Herndon or wherever... How much on hotels? Per deim? As I said before that Herndon bldg is pretty cheap becuase of some good moves.

Finally, respect that there are guys that are paid to manage these issues on a regular basis 40+ hours a week, so I am not sure what a casual flightinfo user can offer, especially when he doesn't have all the facts.

How'd you like a pax to come up to the cockpit and tell you how to run your ship simply based on back seat sensory preceptions?

Fly your jets... and let the ALPA staffers and management types do what they do best... addressing the Agenda of the Air Line Pilots.

Don't crap where you eat....






Finally, I am not privy to any special information. Most of what I know I have learned from reading ALPA's history and working with my elected leadership. Something any ALPA pilot can do.... if they choose...

 

[CaptSeth]

By the way, Unit 2 and Unit 1 staff are working in MEC offices all over the country, not just Herndon.

 

[RJones]

How'd you like a pax to come up to the cockpit and tell you how to run your ship simply based on back seat sensory preceptions?

ATC does it all the time ... and they aint in d'back.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ATC does it all the time ... and they aint in d'back.

And you let them?

 

[RJones]

And you let them?

That seems to be an ongoing argument of mine, why ATC tells me how to fly the plane. To answer your question... NO!

I want to know... why do we thank them all the time? I rarely thank them, for crying out loud, we are paying their bills.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Trust me, I'm very aware of the Herndon building. ACO had our MEC offices there and I spent a good amount of time in and out of that building...

However there are a lot of staff functions that I think could be moved away from DC. Would ALPA still need a DC presence? Definately, however a great number of the people that work there have no interaction with ALPA execs through face to face contact.

Simply put a lot of the administration of the organization could be moved to a cheaper location. Real estate isn't the only consideration (That building is worth several million dollars by the way). Salaries, costs of living, costs of business and many other factors come into play.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Trust me, I'm very aware of the Herndon building. ACO had our MEC offices there and I spent a good amount of time in and out of that building...

However there are a lot of staff functions that I think could be moved away from DC. Would ALPA still need a DC presence? Definately, however a great number of the people that work there have no interaction with ALPA execs through face to face contact.

Simply put a lot of the administration of the organization could be moved to a cheaper location. Real estate isn't the only consideration (That building is worth several million dollars by the way). Salaries, costs of living, costs of business and many other factors come into play.

How would you like someone, who wasn't fully informed, (sure you know a little) advocate you move to BFE, cause they thought it was a good idea.

Why don't you move....


It is really disapointing that pilots are treating the ALPA staff exactly the way they say airline management should not treat them.

Do you people have any intergrity or you just care about yourselfs and your world. If not you are living up to the pilot personna.....

 

[superatr]

Unit 2 reached a TA today. They will be back to work tomorrow.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

ATC does it all the time ... and they aint in d'back.

Really??? That doesn't happen to me. Where do you fly?

Tejas

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Unit 2 reached a TA today. They will be back to work tomorrow.

Now we can get the updated news articles on the website. That's about the only thing i noticed when they were on strike.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Simply put a lot of the administration of the organization could be moved to a cheaper location. Real estate isn't the only consideration (That building is worth several million dollars by the way). Salaries, costs of living, costs of business and many other factors come into play.

The best way to address this is through a "Rez O. Lewshun" ( Resolution) at your next LEC meeting.

Let us know how the vote goes. After all, it is a membership driven organization...if only the nmembership would get involved.

Tejas

 

[Flyerjosh]

The best way to address this is through a "Rez O. Lewshun" ( Resolution) at your next LEC meeting.

Let us know how the vote goes. After all, it is a membership driven organization...if only the nmembership would get involved.

Tejas

Tejas,

I'd be all for it, but as it stands my MEC/LEC was dissolved in January when my former employer (IDE) tanked. I'm no longer an active member in ALPA, which is fine by me. I'd much rather have my salary and benefits based on my own personal performance and negotiate for my high standards, rather than those of the lowest common demoninator.

9 months on the job so far, 2 pay increases, and no headbutting with upper level managment. I'll take it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tejas,

I'd be all for it, but as it stands my MEC/LEC was dissolved in January when my former employer (IDE) tanked. I'm no longer an active member in ALPA, which is fine by me. .

But yet you have no problem starting a thread that advocates people move to Bismark, ND. Basically be concessionary....

If you are no longer involved and have a stake in ALPA...why do you care?

I'd much rather have my salary and benefits based on my own personal performance and negotiate for my high standards, rather than those of the lowest common demoninator..

What does this have to do with anything? As a pilot, what performance? You shoot ILS's better than the other guy? I don't get it?

9 months on the job so far, 2 pay increases, and no headbutting with upper level managment. I'll take it.

Easy come....easy go.....

I'm all for competitive wages and fair salaries, but there also has to be some fiscal responsibility

And you will also take your unilateral paycuts and termination whenever managmeent decides.... if this is really not an issue at your company.. then none of this thread is an issue as well....

Why do you have to push some other group down all while saying "I got mine"???

 

[Flyerjosh]

But yet you have no problem starting a thread that advocates people move to Bismark, ND. Basically be concessionary....

If you are no longer involved and have a stake in ALPA...why do you care?

What does this have to do with anything? As a pilot, what performance? You shoot ILS's better than the other guy? I don't get it?

Easy come....easy go.....

And you will also take your unilateral paycuts and termination whenever managmeent decides.... if this is really not an issue at your company.. then none of this thread is an issue as well....

Why do you have to push some other group down all while saying "I got mine"???

Res,

You're undying commitment to ALPA is quite impressive. I only wish that so many people were willing to step up and be as active as you are (I am assuming at least that somehow you're involved in the union based on previous posts and knowledge).

In response to your last post:

You're correct. I am no longer an active participant in ALPA. Less by choice than by necessity. You see, the state of the industry is such that me as a furloughee had two choices:

Start over at another regional airline at $18-20K and wait an additional 3 years to upgrade again (since I didn't have the magic 1000 turbine PIC), or find something that actually compensated me fairly for my experience. You tell me what you would have chosen.

Second, I may no longer be a dues paying member, but I am still a member of ALPA in GOOD STANDING (at least that's what the website says when I log on). As such, I think that I am entitled to my opinion (whether you like it or not).

I'm happy for the unit 2 employees that have apparently been able to reach a tentative agreement. All power to them for their ability to negotiate.

However I am concerned that ALPA no longer operates as an organization that keeps it's best interests in mind with regards to the finances of the operation. Like it or not, ALPA is a BUSINESS. It's a business that generates political capital as well as financial capital. It might look like a non-profit, but the truth is the intent of ALPA is to increase it's own revenues through political action and skillful bargining that results in higher pay for pilots, thus increasing the unions coffers.

I've seen incredibly wasteful spending at many levels of the union. I'm not saying that anybody is crooked, but it does upset me to see local reps using union dues for golf and filet mignon while attending the national convention.

But back to why do I care... like it or not, even though I'm away from the airlines, what happens in one corner of this industry impacts the other corners as well. When pay goes down at one carrier, it affects pay EVERYWHERE including corporate operations. Airlines don't just affect pay either- their ups and downs can directly affect the costs of my operations (take for instance the ongoing user fee debate.)

I certainly think there's a place in the industry for the union. However I also think that right now, in its current state, ALPA IS BROKEN. There are too many different needs, too many drivers, and too many unanswered questions.

Oh and one other thing... what's wrong with Bismarck, ND? I lived there for 18 months and thought it was great! Good people with great work ethic, a nice city, affordable living and good schools. Even the weather becomes bearable once you figure it out. There's a bunch of reasons that a good number of major corporations have ADMINISTRATIVE SUPPORT OFFICES in Bismarck.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Oh one other thing...

Your signature: "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. - Plato"

Kind of funny since I'm trying to participate, but keep getting shot down by you. Does the fact that I can't vote mean that I'm no longer eligible to participate at least thru discussion? Or is it just because I don't see things exactly as you do about ALPA?

 

[Atlanta Vicks]

If you want to play ball with the players you have to go to the field. The field doesn't come to you. (unless you are Chuck Norris)

Chuck Norris can speak Braille!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm happy for the unit 2 employees that have apparently been able to reach a tentative agreement. All power to them for their ability to negotiate. .

Would've been nice if you had simply said that instead of deporting them to God Forsaken places like Bismark, ND

I've seen incredibly wasteful spending at many levels of the union. I'm not saying that anybody is crooked, but it does upset me to see local reps using union dues for golf and filet mignon while attending the national convention. .

A big misconception and deep insult. Don't talk about what you don't know.

The filet mignon is a scooby snack compared to the value and work that local reps do for thier pilots. If ALPA reps were able to bill the membership for the hourly work they did, you'd glady trade it all for a steak and a round of golf.

Some ALPA reps put 15 hours of work in a week. Let's say the average pay at your previous regional was $60/hr. That is $900 a week of value that the membership is getting from that volunteer. Now.... you want to insult ALPA volunteers by calling them out on a $25 steak during a working dinner!

Incredulous!!!

But back to why do I care... like it or not, even though I'm away from the airlines, what happens in one corner of this industry impacts the other corners as well. When pay goes down at one carrier, it affects pay EVERYWHERE including corporate operations. Airlines don't just affect pay either- their ups and downs can directly affect the costs of my operations (take for instance the ongoing user fee debate.).

Then care. Don't complain. Understand, don't insult.

I certainly think there's a place in the industry for the union. However I also think that right now, in its current state, ALPA IS BROKEN. There are too many different needs, too many drivers, and too many unanswered questions..

ALPA isn't broken. It just isn't living up to expectations. Expectations that aren't necessarily valid. You can't get blood from a stone.

ATTENTION ALPA MEMBERS! The industry is in total ruins! there is no money to negoatiate from the poorly run companies! Until management either gets into an up cylce or they stop being incompetant, ALPA cannot create an oasis in the desert! If they can please tell us HOW!!

Let's put it this way... why the cylce returns and so does growth, and pilots are getting pay raises and disposable income... all of you reactive ALPA members will forget these bad times and go back to your hobbies. Rather, you should be learning from your mistakes so when the next down turn occurs we will be ready...... but we won't. Let me guess it is not your responsibility.

Oh and one other thing... what's wrong with Bismarck, ND? I lived there for 18 months and thought it was great! Good people with great work ethic, a nice city, affordable living and good schools. Even the weather becomes bearable once you figure it out. There's a bunch of reasons that a good number of major corporations have ADMINISTRATIVE SUPPORT OFFICES in Bismarck.

Start your own union then. Make it better than ALPA, convert the membership and hire Bismarkian secretaries!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Oh one other thing...

Your signature: "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. - Plato"

Kind of funny since I'm trying to participate, but keep getting shot down by you. Does the fact that I can't vote mean that I'm no longer eligible to participate at least thru discussion? Or is it just because I don't see things exactly as you do about ALPA?

Don't make it sound like you brought positive discussion to the table and you got shut out.

Discuss all you want, but bring something positive to the table.

All you did was whine about it and now you are trying to throw out a guilt trip....

I am not "All things ALPA".

ALPA has big problems.... BIG!

But if anything is to change... if we are to shift the paradigm, re-boot the system or shake up the organization....

Then membership has to do it! And the memebership must be informed and educated.

You guys have got to do better than this.... otherwise the power players are going to keep the power...

 

[Flyerjosh]

A big misconception and deep insult. Don't talk about what you don't know.

The filet mignon is a scooby snack compared to the value and work that local reps do for thier pilots. If ALPA reps were able to bill the membership for the hourly work they did, you'd glady trade it all for a steak and a round of golf.

Some ALPA reps put 15 hours of work in a week. Let's say the average pay at your previous regional was $60/hr. That is $900 a week of value that the membership is getting from that volunteer. Now.... you want to insult ALPA volunteers by calling them out on a $25 steak during a working dinner!

Incredulous!!!

This one I can't let go. Because you know what? YOU'RE A VOLUNTEER. I have no problem with the occassional expenditure here and there. I do have issues when I see reps (at any airline) using dues for booze, strip joints, and other excessive "pleasures." I also have issues when I see elected volunteers working the system to get more pay.

Personally I can say that my MEC did a pretty good job of our finances. I know because I've seen the books. I also hold no grudge against my own MEC/LEC- they were great people to work with and did an incredible job.

I also think that I am a bit "in the know" about what an ALPA volunteer goes through. I personally chaired a 115 member committee (Pilot2Pilot), and served as the communications chair for a while. I oversaw the distribution of materials for several roadshows as well. You know what? In most instances, those so called volunteers are PAID for their service (unless your MEC just kicks them to the side). Our biggest budget item was flight loss pay for union work.

Now before you jump down my throat, I know that reps spend a lot of time and effort without reimbursement. And you're right, they do deserve the occasional celebratory dinner from time to time. However you tell me that within ALPA as a whole there's not excessive discretionary spending going on and I can't help but laugh. I KNOW otherwise because I've seen it in other MECs and at the national level.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This one I can't let go. Because you know what? YOU'RE A VOLUNTEER. I have no problem with the occassional expenditure here and there. I do have issues when I see reps (at any airline) using dues for booze, strip joints, and other excessive "pleasures." I also have issues when I see elected volunteers working the system to get more pay.

Personally I can say that my MEC did a pretty good job of our finances. I know because I've seen the books. I also hold no grudge against my own MEC/LEC- they were great people to work with and did an incredible job.

I also think that I am a bit "in the know" about what an ALPA volunteer goes through. I personally chaired a 115 member committee (Pilot2Pilot), and served as the communications chair for a while. I oversaw the distribution of materials for several roadshows as well. You know what?
Now before you jump down my throat, I know that reps spend a lot of time and effort without reimbursement. And you're right, they do deserve the occasional celebratory dinner from time to time. However you tell me that within ALPA as a whole there's not excessive discretionary spending goiIn most instances, those so called volunteers are PAID for their service (unless your MEC just kicks them to the side). Our biggest budget item was flight loss pay for union work.ng on and I can't help but laugh. I KNOW otherwise because I've seen it in other MECs and at the national level.

A contridicting post.....

You say money is being used for booze and strip bars...

OK.... I have a problem with this too. And so does ALPA. So do you have a problem with individuals or ALPA? Which is it?

But yet you insist on a return back hand slap, by saying as a volunteer, giving up your time should also mean spending money out of your pocket....

It isn't a celebratory dinner... it is called three square meals a day. If one does work, do they get to eat? MEC Chairman says thanks for your hard work...go pay for your own meals and return tomorrow, we got more work to do....

In most instances, those so called volunteers are PAID for their service (unless your MEC just kicks them to the side). Our biggest budget item was flight loss pay for union work.

You just don't get it.... but yet you insist on being irresponsible. Flight Pay Loss is one for one compensation. If a volunteer has to fly that day and their is ALPA work to be done, the MEC asked the company to remove that pilot for the flight schedule. Now, the pilot still gets paid by the company and the company has to get another the pilot. Now the company is paying twice for the same work. Thus, ALPA reimburses the company. Now, the pilot that volunteered to do ALPA works still gets his pay MINUS per deim!

MINUS per deim! So do you mind if the membership buys him lunch and dinner? Is that too much too ask!

Why should ALPA volunteers have to donate thier time and MONEY! Your lack of gratitude is beyond civility....

Finally, if you have examples of ALPA volunteers abusing the system then let's hear it. Yes I am calling you out. What airline? What committee? When? Let's hear some specifics so we know you know something and not just fabricating to make yourself sound creditable.

And if you have ceditable facts, then deal with it decreetly. All your post does is feed fodder to the ALPA cynics and haters. They read your bile and buy into it.

I question your professionalism.

I do have issues when I see reps (at any airline) using dues for booze, strip joints, and other excessive "pleasures." I also have issues when I see elected volunteers working the system to get more pay.

And if there are abuses, then report them. If your gov't officials abuse the system do you denounce the entire US of A? Get real.

Also, if you saw ALPA Reps at strips bars or drinking booze, where you there when he/she submitted his expense form? I doubt it. So an ALPA rep volunteers his time, goes to a strip bar, and you automatically assume ALPA is paying for it. So, volunteers, when giving thier free time, should not do anything else cause they might be accused of working the system. Don't eat, don't drink, don't buy a gift for your wife, cause it might look devious...

Maybe you don't understand volunteerism. For example, when an event is held and volunteers are asked to help out.... usually the requesting organization buys the volunteers lunch/dinner and over night stays. Is that too much to ask...?

I guess for you it is.... And as a prior volunteer for you to continue to insult says more about you than ALPA and its hard working volunteers....

I am completely disgusted....