Alpa....Pathetic

[crj579]

"Once this new "brand" of scope is established, all regional carriers will benefit immensely from the ability of the mainline MEC's to negotiate on their behalf, without their consent, thus ensuring that their futures and jobs are placed firmily in the hands of the mainline MEC's, where they belong. It's a break through."


This is truly scary. Not being able to negotiate on your own behalf, without consent.

Way to keep the peasants down, Duane. Just think, Delta won't have to hire the Comair pilots either and when it comes to negotiating cuts, I dare think they will take care an iota when it drags down the Comair pilot to food stamp level. I am sure the first thing to be negotiated in the Comair pilots behalf (sarcasm intended) will be a flowdown.

 

[General Lee]

After the overwhelming show of support for our furloughs after 9-11 from the Comair pilots, I am sure we can't wait to help them out.......There will be no flow up, either......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dash8]

welcome to the fiefdom

i've come to the conclusion that alpa is like a feudal society,
i can almost here eric idle now

"Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the..."

"your fooling yourself, were living in a dictatorship, a self perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes..."

wish i could get a clip of woerthless saying
'I am your king'

that would be too sweet....

 

[crj579]

General - What continues to amaze me about your posts is the way you believe in the "entitlement" of pilots at Delta. You made a choice to leave a regional and go to a different company. It was a choice that comes with risk. If your company is doing poorly, what entitles your pilots to take another pilots job? Be careful here, you might say something like "operational integration" . Your "entitlement" dribble is getting old. Suck it up and get in line with an application like everyone else - youre starting to sound like a lifetime welfare recepient.

 

[General Lee]

crj579,

Well, I don't need to go anywhere right now since I am flying at Delta. (Thanks anyway) What you don't seem to understand is that there are ramifications for everything in this business. The decision your group makes as a whole (or lack of trying) can and will hurt you later on. We know that Comair is actually OWNED by Delta, and that your twin sister airline, ASA, is allowing our furloughed pilots to go to the BOTTOM of their list (entitlement?? Wouldn't that mean going straight to Capt?) without seniority resignation. It is also happening at Chataqua. That will be remembered. Your lack of help in this matter may just bleed over to future hiring at the big D. You might say, "well, that would be years from now....." Maybe, and maybe not. You may not care. Good. The main thing here is that hiring Delta furloughs to the bottom of your list would have given you experienced pilots (compared to your DCI academy grads) and they would not have bumped any of you at all. Delta would have footed the bill, not Comair. (they OWN you guys) We actually endorsed your recent merger proposal with ASA, and again that has gone unnoticed. You guys are really becoming a big pain in the a$$, talk about "entitlement". Well, if we do go Chap 11 eventually, I know you guys will love that Mesa style contract. Thanks for helping out our furloughs when they NEEDED it. Have a great day.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Catbird]

surplus 1-

I have to give you your due. Your expose' on Alpa and Duane is fantastic if you have been living in a Tibetan Monastery for the last 15 years. Unfortunately the level of education within the Commuter ranks are able to recognize fraud and misrepresentation. Lets let the courts decide if Worthless and his employed advisor's have maintained a duty of fair representation. The RJDC litigation hearings are approaching quickly, along with the brothers at PFR. I don't believe Capt. White is allowing new plaintiffs but you might be able to join the PFR litigation, as long as you don't have Alpa Communication craft your proposal.

 

[TWA Dude]

surplus1:

Good show! You've cured my negativity.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

General...
If Delta goes Chapter 11, do you think Comair will be IPO'd to make some cash (odd way to say it, but it's not a spin-off or a sell off, but an IPO)? I do. So, will the contract be affected? Doubt it. Comair is still making money, not losing it. Regardless, the landscape will change quite drastically before that happens.

Honestly, the family feud is a little old. Time to get a new perspective. Change the things that you can - and forget the things that you can't... helps the stress to level off. I think everyone here knows the story. See that horse laying on the ground...? Yeah, it's a gonner.

 

[General Lee]

Pez,

No, I don't see it that way. Why would Delta want to get rid of a moneymaker? They could just ask the judge to slash your wages down to Mesa's, and there wouldn't be much for you to say. They don't have to sell anything. And, since your strike back in 2001, I think they would love to slash your higher wages, just like ours. To think that you will be unaffected is naive. Could they do an IPO and make cash from it? Sure, but even the new managment there would want your wages slashed. But, since you guys are moneymakers, they would probably keep you and just go after your contracts, just like ours. I am not making fun of anyone here, I am just telling you what I see as reality. If they can't get money from you now, they will try later.


And, as far as changing the things I can and leaving the dead horse on the ground, I wish it were that easy. I still know furloughs that are on the street and can't get a flying job. I think a lot of them have apps in with ASA and Chataqua.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TWA Dude]

They could just ask the judge to slash your wages down to Mesa's, and there wouldn't be much for you to say.

Uh, isn't Comair a different company from Delta? Wholly-owned, but different? Unless Comair files chap 11 I don't see how a judge could order them to do anything.

Dude

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

General,
You make some good points. And, hopefully we'll never find out who is right. If they did IPO Comair for cash, I don't think the management would change, except to add a new BOD. But that type of succesorship is covered in the contract - it wouldn't change. As for the judge (if Comair was to stay part of the company) -- yeah, he could do whatever he thought was appropriate... but, like I said, the landscape will change dramatically before that happens. I think the bankruptcy line is just a management tool to bully your pilot group around - I don't think it's realistic... but who knows, that could be naive.

Once again, I do have friends on your furlough list and hope they get back to work soon -- that would be great news for all of us.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Australian rules football applied to NFL

After reading this thread, the obvious is confirmed.

So typical is the Homeowners association member who never attends neighborhood meetings until thier neighbors' kid is stabbed. Suddenly the HOA meetings are standing room only with pissed parents wanting to know what the volunteer president is going to do about the crime wave....

So typical is the ALPA pilot who during the 90's boom (any economic boom really) who enjoyed the good times and disregarded his LEC/MEC war chest. When the blue juice hit the fan, suddenly blame must be placed and no one better than the chump that charged out of the foxhole.

Angry pilots finally attend LEC meetings and call elected reps that they never voted for because they never bothered to participate in the election. ALPA volunteers have to spend days, weeks and months, calming down ignorant and angry pilots, educating them on ALPA policy, affairs, protocol, structure and politics.

****
Indifference within ALPA is one of the Association’s greatest problems. From Flying the Line, Vol. 1, page 227:

Inevitably, a new generation arrived made up of pilots less steeped in the past struggles and more content about the professional status ALPA had created for them. The new generation was also increasingly indifferent to ALPA and its administration. Pioneer pilots, by and large, paid close attention to ALPA affairs, and they couldn’t understand the lackadaisical attitude of the younger pilots, partically when it came to governance at the local level. By the late 1950s, many pilots simply took for granted that somebody else would do the hard work needed to sustain ALPA. While complacent pilots golfed or pursued second careers, a minority ran ALPA’s local affairs on each airline.

Although most of these individuals were dedicated to making ALPA work, on some airlines a few pilots used ALPA as a gimmick for personal aggrandizement. The indifference of the rank and file and the poor attendance at local council meetings meant that a minority on any airline could, with proper planning, seize control and eventually dominate the master executive council (MEC) itself. The danger was that a well-organized clique could speak for an indifferent majority of pilots.
****

ALPA isn't a silver bullet. It has problems, just like gov't, church and any organization. And one of the problems that you can control is your effectiveness as an ALPA member. Are you proactive or reactive?

Often one hears "how can ALPA National let this or that happen!!??" The response is "How I can deprogram this guy and reprogram him properly so he understands...or does he just want to be pissed?" Well angry & ignorant pilots are about as useful as Anna Nicole Smith (fat or regular sized...).

Did ALPA ruin Braniff, Pan Am, Eastern, TWA and others? 'Cause everything was cool until these carriers went tango uniform...

Sometimes your world craters and it is no ones fault or it's everyones fault. That's life...it happens. Pick up the pieces and move on. Sure it sucks, especially when you have a wife and kids. It is horrible, but what are we going to do? Go on the lawsuit war path? (maybe...maybe not..that is for you to decide)

I am not trying to devalue the situation, however, a basic, even simplistic, understanding of how the system functions is paramount.

Comments...??

 

[General Lee]

Pez,

I am not saying it will happen, and I hope it does not. But, when UAL went Chap 11, they did not sell their prized assets (LHR slots, Asia routes etc). They just cut labor down and then cut their lease prices etc. They also cut the fee for departure prices for all of their regionals, and Delta could do that too (which would affect Skywest, Chataqua, etc..probably paycuts over there also). None of that sounds pleasant. I would much rather get this done now before it is too late. Yes, an IPO is possible if Delta wanted more cash--for both ASA/Comair. But, I would think that they would try to cut the labor costs beforehand. (everyone thinks we are all overpaid, right??) Since Delta owns ASA/Comair, I think they would have the judge handle all of us at once, and that would suck. But, I am still hopeful that we will get an agreement eventually, and there is NO DOUBT that we will take a paycut at mainline---it is just the percentage that is in question now. We know that, and we want it to be fair and not to be taken for a ride. We also know that the company does NOT want the other employee groups to get unions, so they have been more careful with them. They are trying to make an example out of us. They are trying to whipsaw----last week in Ft. Meyers on pushback the tug guy asked the Capt why we didn't want to take cuts? "That is a total lie"--he said--and looked at me and shook his head. I hope this gets better eventually, and I thought it was great that Dalpa took this last message to the press, stating that "our hopes of negotiating are FADING since the company will not negotiate with us." Finally we are using the press---and the company had "no comment."

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Catbird]

At 8:30 yesterday evening, the ALG/MEC convened a Special MEC meeting via teleconference. In addition to the MEC voting members and officers, ALPA Vice President of Administration Capt. Paul Rice was in attendance. The meeting began with MEC Chairman Capt. Rick O’Leary reviewing ALPA National’s position that following its review of the circumstances surrounding last Tuesday’s MEC meeting, the outcome of the voting on the issues of pilot versus MEC ratification on the proposed, non-negotiable, merger LOA, and acceptance of the merger LOA itself, were not binding, because the meeting was held in conflict with meeting guidelines set forth in ALPA’s Constitution and By-Laws. As a result, those issues would have to be readdressed. It was with that in mind, that this new meeting was being held. Rick then began to review the past practice of our ratification process. A few minutes into that presentation, Council 91 Captain Representative Andy Brixner made a motion to waive the notification requirement contained in a 1997 MEC resolution, which requires that all Letters of Agreement be subject to a 15 day MEC review prior to ratification, and that the Merger Letter of Agreement be approved as well. A discussion then ensued, where questions of clarification and composition of the motion were discussed, with the result being that Capt. Brixner agreed to amend his original motion, and to have the body consider only the issue of whether the MEC should waive the 15 day notification requirement contained in the MEC Resolution dated February 14, 1997. Council 95 Captain Representative Ernie Holtslander seconded the motion. The motion was then put to a vote and it was defeated by a vote of 3 in favor, and 5 against suspending the 15-day review and notification requirement. Council 91 First Officer Representative First Officer Andy Fogg made a motion to reconsider, and moved to have a roll call vote determine the votes outcome. In response to that motion, Council 78 First Officer Representative First Officer Derek Allen asked for, and was granted permission to speak to the motion. First Officer Allen then expressed his view that he took exception to what he considered to be a lack of fairness and consideration to those he represents, with respect to the use of the roll call option to decide the matter, and then declared that that he could no longer participate in the meeting. He then left the meeting. Council 78 Captain Representative Captain John Karas expressed his agreement with First Officer Allen, and left the call as well. Then without comment, Council 92 Captain Representative Bill Yaggi, First Officer Representative Kevin Komisor, and Council 95 First Officer Representative Jeff Ethriedge, left the call as well. To determine whether or not there was still a quorum, which is required to conduct business, as defined in Article IV, Section 4, Attendance and Quorum, in the Constitution and By-Laws, Chairman O’Leary asked MEC Secretary Treasurer Capt. Tom Waterland to call the roll of the MEC. It was then determined that the only MEC members who were still in attendance were Capt. Brixner, First Officer Fogg, and Capt. Holtslander. Captain Rice’s opinion was solicited, and he suggested that Chairman O’Leary recess the meeting, and attempt to contact the MEC members who had left, and advise them that while he, (Captain Rice), was not implying that anyone would, but that is was possible that their leaving the meeting could result in their being brought in front of a hearing board, and be subject to charges under Article 8 of the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws. Chairman O’Leary then recessed the meeting, while the remaining participants remained on the line. Each of the MEC members who left the meeting were contacted and informed of possible Article 8 action. All five members expressed their position that they continued to take issue with the use of roll call to address the issue of MEC versus pilot ratification, and that they declined to rejoin the meeting. Chairman O’Leary then returned to the conference call, advised those in attendance of the position of the departed members, and adjourned the meeting due to a lack of a quorum, as is required by Article IV, Section 4, Attendance and Quorum, in the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws. In an ASPEN message to ALPA President Captain Duane Woerth, Chairman O’Leary briefed him on the outcome of last nights meeting. The MEC is committed to resolving its differences, and will convene again in the near future to bring resolution to these issues.

All Allegheny ALPA members in good standing are urged to contact their local council representatives at their earliest convenience, and make their position known on the issues of pilot versus MEC ratification, as well as ratification of the non-negotiable merger agreement.

Continue to check this hotline, our website, and crew room bulletin boards for the most accurate information. That’s all for this Allegheny MEC update.

Article 8- I/m sure the MEC members with backbone are peeing themselves. Article 69 (flamming hot poker) should be rammed up Andy Fogg, Ernie Holtslander, Andy Brixner, Idiot Rice’s and the grand Duchy's, Duane (don't bend over around) Worthless rump.


Hats off to the men with character. Keep telling Alpa National to stick it where the sun dosn't shine.

 

[79%N1]

Gen Lee.....

Once again, as usual and ad nauseum......you miss the point. ASA and Comair are divisions of Delta that are profitable, UNLIKE the mainline division. Couple that with the fact that they employees of ASA and Comair are MUCH LOWER PAID than comparable employees of the mainline division!!! Why should we at ASA/Comair take a paycut???? It just does not make any freakin sense. As a pilot, I do the same job as you, albeit in a smaller aircraft. But I work for a disproportionately smaller salary. Yet, you continue to believe that I should suffer smaller wages to offset the losses incurred at your division, especially when you and you colleagues are paid astronomically higher than your contemporaries at other mainline carriers. It is YOUR costs that are out of line, not ours. I challenge you to tell me that if it were reversed, and Comair/ASA were well overpaid on average - and losing TONS of money, that you and the rest of your mainliner buddies would step up and give back for the whole team?!?! NO WAY, NEVER!!! AND YOU KNOW IT! Leave Comair/ASA out of the problems with Delta MAINLINE......or add us to your seniority list, then we'll talk because we will then and only then be "on the same team!"

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Gen Lee.....

Once again, as usual and ad nauseum......you miss the point. ASA and Comair are divisions of Delta that are profitable, UNLIKE the mainline division. Couple that with the fact that they employees of ASA and Comair are MUCH LOWER PAID than comparable employees of the mainline division!!! Why should we at ASA/Comair take a paycut???? It just does not make any freakin sense. As a pilot, I do the same job as you, albeit in a smaller aircraft. But I work for a disproportionately smaller salary. Yet, you continue to believe that I should suffer smaller wages to offset the losses incurred at your division, especially when you and you colleagues are paid astronomically higher than your contemporaries at other mainline carriers. It is YOUR costs that are out of line, not ours. I challenge you to tell me that if it were reversed, and Comair/ASA were well overpaid on average - and losing TONS of money, that you and the rest of your mainliner buddies would step up and give back for the whole team?!?! NO WAY, NEVER!!! AND YOU KNOW IT! Leave Comair/ASA out of the problems with Delta MAINLINE......or add us to your seniority list, then we'll talk because we will then and only then be "on the same team!"

Yet another person not in the know. Comair may or may not be making money. I personally doubt that we are. Recent quotes from the CFO at Delta do not suggest, but alas ASSERT, that Comair and ASA's costs, do not include anything other than direct operational cost. This consists of fuel, crews, and MTX. So to say that Comair is profitable is naive at best, and an outright lie at worst. This is merely more rheotric from the contingent at Comair and ASA who do not know their place in the world. Again, this is from the CFO at Delta herself. Quoted. Argue the facts folks.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[General Lee]

That's what I said before, we heard that from Michele Burns (the CFO) in a CVG meeting. But, everyone at Comair thinks they are holding up the Delta foundation. Wrong.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[79%N1]

You outright miss the basic point, of course, because you are all blind to the real issue. GL keeps insisting that everyone is equal and on the same team and need to "share the pain". I contend that is not true, and if the situation is reversed the Delta pilots would feel different. They would say, 'Comair/ASA are losing money and their costs are too high. It's THEM that need to cut their costs and/or take paycuts......we are a different company'....AND YOU ALL KNOW IT!!!!!!!!

SCOPE THIS..................

And also, if Skywest can be prfitable then there is no reason to believe that ASA and Comair are indeed truely profitable, no matter how you want to cook the books. I dont buy that arguement for a second!

 

[j41driver]

How about... ALPA National only protects the big legacy carriers.

Wasn't TWA one of them?? Didn't protect the TWA guys too well did they??

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Scope,
Although I've taken it up with the General, and there is some back and forth, yet good natured banter, I think you're wrong. Why? Because I asked the guys at the GO if we payed for the cost of the airplanes - one of the biggest costs we face. The answer was yes. Simple - go to the GO and ask someone in the know (easy enough). If your answer isn't the same as the one I got, then we can discuss it - until then... what info are you basing this opinion on? You can attribute things to shady accounting or pencil-whipping the books, but when you get down to it, without solid facts - if Comair is making a profit, what does that mean? It means that we cover the expenses and make money on top of that.

General,
My statements in no way imply that we are holding up the Delta foundation. Simply that we make a profit. There's only one way for Delta to be profitable - and that's for the mainline to be profitable. Delta could carry Comair and ASA finacially if the tables were turned... but to think the opposite is absurd. That is why your pilot group is at the table to negotiate pay cuts. I think a lot of the resentment comes from Delta seeking to cut pay from the bottom up - due to leverage. They have more leverage on the bottom tier than on the top, and better established tier. Hopefully, things will work out well for all concerned. It would be great if you didn't have, or need, to take a pay cut - but, the same applies to us. Off topic - Are you based in CVG?