ALPA National changes policy, now supports Age 65 retirement

[Freight Dog]

Rez... do you ever wonder why the participation is low? I agree, it *SHOULD* be higher, but ever wonder how ALPA national policies influence your average ALPA pilot? This age 60 was a slam in the face of every ALPA pilot regardless of which side of the fence you're sitting - for or against changing the age.

This is almost akin to membership ratifying or rejecting a contract, and the MEC says to hell with the membership, we're doing just the opposite.

It sends a message that leadership doesn't give a hoot about its rank and file, and the end result is apathy and lack of participation.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez... do you ever wonder why the participation is low? I agree, it *SHOULD* be higher,

Then let's work to make it so....

but ever wonder how ALPA national policies influence your average ALPA pilot? This age 60 was a slam in the face of every ALPA pilot regardless of which side of the fence you're sitting - for or against changing the age.

A bit dramatic....? The split was close so you are only talking a small majority... plus how many pilots presenting resolutions at thier LEC meetings?

This is almost akin to membership ratifying or rejecting a contract, and the MEC says to hell with the membership, we're doing just the opposite.

It has been argued over and over and over... You keep screaming the will of the membership! However, what you fail to effectively argue is the rationale and cause and effect of each path...

It sends a message that leadership doesn't give a hoot about its rank and file, and the end result is apathy and lack of participation.

So then what? Continue with apathy? or Get involved and effect positive change... What do you suggest?

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez, you never answer my question. Why do you think the participation is low?

 

[ualdriver]

Rez, you never answer my question. Why do you think the participation is low?

Wasn't this answered already? Just keeping repeating this over and over....

It's ALPA's fault that Age 60 changed.
It's ALPA's fault that I lost my ___________. (insert pay, pension, or work rules)
It will be ALPA's fault if/when laws concerning cabotage change.
If anything bad happens in the industry, then that's ALPA's fault, too.

And then just move on to a different thread......Wear your pin upside down. Better yet, take it off. Get a decertification drive going at your airline. Don't contribute to ALPA-PAC. Don't go to meetings or participate in polls because all of the above is a waste of time as we all know ALPA does NOTHING for the profession.

Move on, man.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, you never answer my question. Why do you think the participation is low?

participation..... it involves human beings, who in this case are pilots, to generate messages in thier mind to move thier physical body and mental mind to act and change thier behavior in a certain way. What is learning? A change in behavior! (I knew keeping my CFI current was worth something..)

So how do we get pilots to learn. In this case... unlearn and re-learn the right way...

In part it is ALPA's fault for having a poor indoctrination during new hire class. But is it not a shared responsibility? (direct question yes/no... I ask for a direct answer..)

At what age to place responsibility for ones self? In our society at age 18.

As airline pilots we know how to self educate. In addition ALPA is a representational democracy. You have the ability to democractically (not a survey!) be involved up to and including elected positions of responsibility. Have you attended a LEC meeting and presented an resoultion supporting your position?

So where is the disconnect?

It is your career. When are you going to take responsibility for your career?

I ask you to quote each line above and respond...

 

[Freight Dog]

Wow, who pee'd in your Cheerios this morning UALDriver?

You know better than that. I'm not attributing ALPA as "probable cause" for the bad things happening here. I'm saying they were the "contributing factors."

For ALPA to disregard the will of the membership on such a hot topic such as age 60, sends a strong and wrong message to the membership saying: your opinion is irrelevant, you're not smart enough to make that decision, so we'll make it for you.

Not a smart move.

Hope your day gets better.

 

[Freight Dog]

In part it is ALPA's fault for having a poor indoctrination during new hire class. But is it not a shared responsibility? (direct question yes/no... I ask for a direct answer..)

Yes it is. What you don't know Rez is that when I got off probation here and before we went into bankruptcy, I went to our membership services committee and told them that the current poor indoc practice is not adequate at best, and at worst, makes us look like we're in bed with the management. Instead, my idea was to take them OUT of the company's setting, to our union offices - not on the Company property, give them a tour, feed them, and solicit their previous experiences with any sort of a union work.

I agree, it is a shared responsibility, but like I said, I place the bigger burden on leadership.

At what age to place responsibility for ones self? In our society at age 18.

As airline pilots we know how to self educate. In addition ALPA is a representational democracy. You have the ability to democractically (not a survey!) be involved up to and including elected positions of responsibility. Have you attended a LEC meeting and presented an resoultion supporting your position?

Not with respect to Age 60 because it happened recently, but with respect to other things, absolutely.

So where is the disconnect?

It is your career. When are you going to take responsibility for your career?

I ask you to quote each line above and respond...

The disconnect is placed on multiple levels. Yes, it is my career and I choose to be involved in it. I go to my union meetings despite the fact that I'm a commuter. I participate in every poll, vote in every election and voice my opinion. But that's me... I'm a stubborn a$$hole if you can't tell that already.

Like I said, the disconnect is on multiple levels. Another level is the leadership. If the leadership makes itself to be unapproachable, or not listening and just paying a lip service, you're not doing anyone any favors.

It is the responsibility of leadership to inspire others and set an example to follow. That is IMO the biggest disconnect. They failed at that. When you have a strong leader, it shows. Likewise when you have a wet noodle, it also shows.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes it is. What you don't know Rez is that when I got off probation here and before we went into bankruptcy, I went to our membership services committee and told them that the current poor indoc practice is not adequate at best, and at worst, makes us look like we're in bed with the management. Instead, my idea was to take them OUT of the company's setting, to our union offices - not on the Company property, give them a tour, feed them, and solicit their previous experiences with any sort of a union work.

Agreed. But now you are talking money and time. You are talking about a volunteer who is going to organize this and keep it going class after class. You could have a salaries non pilot staffer do it, but do the new guys want to hear it from a line pilot or a desk driver? Does the MEC budget afford this?

I agree, it is a shared responsibility, but like I said, I place the bigger burden on leadership.

Ok... but as I said above the leadership has only so many resources with 1.95% dues and a volunteer system to get things done.



Not with respect to Age 60 because it happened recently, but with respect to other things, absolutely.

The disconnect is placed on multiple levels. Yes, it is my career and I choose to be involved in it. I go to my union meetings despite the fact that I'm a commuter. I participate in every poll, vote in every election and voice my opinion. But that's me... I'm a stubborn a$$hole if you can't tell that already.

So how do we get the others to do so...

Like I said, the disconnect is on multiple levels. Another level is the leadership. If the leadership makes itself to be unapproachable, or not listening and just paying a lip service, you're not doing anyone any favors.

Again... time, resources and money... You're asking a guy to give up free time to make it better for another...

It is the responsibility of leadership to inspire others and set an example to follow. That is IMO the biggest disconnect. They failed at that. When you have a strong leader, it shows. Likewise when you have a wet noodle, it also shows.

Ok... so what do you suggests? We just elected a new leader and the honeymoon is over... So what do you suggest? I agree it fubar and I am trying to make it work respite that.. do give up and resign to apathy is the death of us all....

What do you suggest?

 

[ualdriver]

Wow, who pee'd in your Cheerios this morning UALDriver?

You know better than that. I'm not attributing ALPA as "probable cause" for the bad things happening here. I'm saying they were the "contributing factors."

For ALPA to disregard the will of the membership on such a hot topic such as age 60, sends a strong and wrong message to the membership saying: your opinion is irrelevant, you're not smart enough to make that decision, so we'll make it for you.

Not a smart move.

Hope your day gets better.

My day is fine. I might have mistaken you for someone else who was yanking my chain a week or two back. Sorry.

ALPA did not disregard the membership concerning Age 60.

 

[merlindrvr88]

Hi PBR

Spoken like the true $hitbag that you are, greedy, want everything now, without having to work for the bare minimum. I for one am glad that this will prevent you and your poor judgment from commanding anything larger than the crap barge you are currently in. With any kind of luck you will become quickly frustrated at your lack of advancment into the left seat of the 787 and be caught jacking off at the kindergarden fence that you loiter at when not at the charity employment position you had your parents buy for you.
No cake for you, just a Swingline Dash-8, painted with shiny paint.
PBR

You are the true sh@tbag we all hate. You want to stick around for another 5 years because ALPO ******************************d your retirement. To bad ******************************!! You loved them before, so now you reap your CRAP rewards!!! Good luck old man, hope you and your family die poor, sucking on the ALPO teet. HAHAHAHHA MORON.

 

[d328pilot]

Rez,
People are fed up with the lack of leadership from ALPA. Better leadership would mean higher participation. You always turn people's legitimate complaints against them and say they are not involved enough. What solutions do you offer to help ALPA regain the confidence of its membership?


ALPA is like old yeller....Its time to take it out back, shoot it, and start anew.

 

[ualdriver]

Rez,
People are fed up with the lack of leadership from ALPA. Better leadership would mean higher participation. You always turn people's legitimate complaints against them and say they are not involved enough. What solutions do you offer to help ALPA regain the confidence of its membership?


ALPA is like old yeller....Its time to take it out back, shoot it, and start anew.

Unfortunatley, I think people have unrealistic expectations about what ALPA can and cannot do. ALPA cannot overcome market forces long term and ALPA cannot overcome the will of Congress or globalization long term. If you think we should take 'er out back and shoot it, I think most will be sorely disappointed with whatever entity takes its place.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

People are fed up with the lack of leadership from ALPA.

Like UALDriver said... expectations are too realistic. Many pilots are simply aloof to union affairs until something happens. Then they want action. It is similiar to HOA's. No one cares about neighborhood activities until the 15 year old girl is raped.. then all of a sudden homeowners want action. they want to go from zero to 60 but have no idea HOW.

Better leadership would mean higher participation.

We just had VP & President elections. The guys that elected the president were elected by an apathetic membership. Avg. LEC election particaption rates is 30%. So only 30% of the general membership sent reps to the BOD to elect the President.

we just had an opportunity to put in fresh new leadership. What happen?

You always turn people's legitimate complaints against them and say they are not involved enough.

Well it is your career. Its like giving your child to "someone" to rasie and poking your head in every now and then for 18 years. When the child doesn't fit in with the family you wonder why.

Yes. Do you think a minority of the membership is satisfactory to reclaim this profession? Do you think the difficulties we are facing now and the effort needed to shift the market forces can be done with minority membership particaption? Direct answer please.

What solutions do you offer to help ALPA regain the confidence of its membership?

Everyone brings something to the party. The more people we have to more ideas, innovation, power, strength and effectiveness. Yes it is that simple. What is difficult is leading the pilots. The more particaption the more leadership. But you must have particaption for the leadership to be effective.

It is a two way street and you guys are treating it like a mexican stand off.

Well I am not going to protect my career until they show better leadership. Is that not self destructive. And besides you just voted in new leadership.. except that most likely 70% didn't bother to vote.

ALPA is like old yeller....Its time to take it out back, shoot it, and start anew.

No problem. What solutions do you offer. You must have a viable functioning organization ready to go once you pull the trigger on Old Yeller. The ALPA organization can be made better but I really think we just need more strength and power thru particaption.

How is a majority participation going to hinder us? Argue that it is nil or counter productive. direct answer requested.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Unfortunatley, I think people have unrealistic expectations about what ALPA can and cannot do.

Agreed. They simply are aloof to the political world that is thier airline careers. No one said in flight training " I hope i am politically effective in my Air Line Career". Yet that is what and HOW it takes to get better days off, pay, work rules benifits and retirement. Politics.

ALPA cannot overcome market forces long term and ALPA cannot overcome the will of Congress or globalization long term.

So true. We can influence congress by playing the game. we just need to know the rules and move from the bleechers to the playing field. Our careers are not spectator sports.

If you think we should take 'er out back and shoot it, I think most will be sorely disappointed with whatever entity takes its place.

It is quite ironic that ALPA is well respected on CapHill. Too bad its own members don't.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You are the true sh@tbag we all hate. You want to stick around for another 5 years because ALPO ******************************d your retirement. To bad ******************************!! You loved them before, so now you reap your CRAP rewards!!! Good luck old man, hope you and your family die poor, sucking on the ALPO teet. HAHAHAHHA MORON.

Sir, your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.