ALPA Mesaba MEC Spin for NWA TA

[avrodriverj85]

Is this guy Wychor on the crack pipe?


Mesaba ALPA MEC Special Hotline

October 27, 2004

Dear Fellow Mesaba Pilot:

Many questions and concerns have arisen in connection with the
NWA Bridge/Investment Agreement that is currently being reviewed
and voted on by the NWA pilots. Given the potential impact of
some of the terms of that agreement on Mesaba Airlines, we
thought it prudent to review the key points, and share our
perspective on the potential consequences.

The NWA MEC views the TA as a "bridge" agreement that
effectively ends their Section 6 negotiations. It is being labeled as a
"bridge" because of its relatively short duration, and because it is
designed to allow NWA management time to implement other cost cutting
measures, including the negotiation of concessions from other
work groups. The NWA MEC concluded that the TA'ed concessions
were necessary at this time to assist NWA in securing additional
financing and credit during a time when the airline continues to
experience significant losses. The concessions negotiated in the
Bridge agreement require that all management employees take pay
cuts as well.

The Tentative Agreement reduces all pay rates by 15%, caps sick-
leave accruals, and requires the pilots to pay 20% of their
health and dental premiums (NWA pilots currently do not pay any part of
the premium for their medical insurance). All told, the cost
reductions outlined in the TA result in $300 million in annual
savings. The NWA pilots will receive 4.05% of outstanding shares
in NWA stock on option, and have guaranteed profit sharing in line
with other NWA employee groups.

The TA also includes concessions in Section 1, the Scope
provisions. The TA allows for the conversion of up to 60-44 seat
jet aircraft into 50 seat jet aircraft, whereas under the
current agreement, the operation of additional 50 seaters was
prohibited. Additionally, and this is the provision that is probably of the
greatest concern to Mesaba pilots, the TA explicitly permits NWA
to add up to 40 more 50 seat jet aircraft, provided that such
aircraft are not flown by Mesaba, Pinnacle, or any other NWA affiliate.

The idea behind this provision was to give NWA the ability to
take advantage of an opportunity to expand into markets where another
airline was reducing or eliminating service (such as UAL or
USAir), and to do so on an expedited basis. If, for example, UAL
drastically cuts service in a certain area, the United Express carriers
would have an excess of aircraft and crews, and would likely be
interested in signing a code share agreement with NWA to perform the same
flying. NWA is concerned that if it does not fill the vacuum
created in the event of an exit of any carriers in NWA's "Heartland
Markets", other carriers will beat them to it. As a result of this relaxed
scope provision, NWA would get a turn key operation, without any of
the ramp up costs associated with bringing in its current code share
partners to do that flying. In addition, if the transition were
made quickly, it would increase NWA market share and feed, and result
in increased revenue.

This new provision in the NWA contract is obviously at odds with
the whole idea of "family or brand scope" because the addition
of these aircraft is contingent upon bringing in another Airlink
carrier. No one on our MEC welcomes this move. At the same time, we
think it is important to put this new development in
perspective, and keep in mind the level of concessions being made by the NWA
pilots.

First, there has never been a prohibition in the NWA scope
language on adding additional Airlinks. That could have occurred
3 years ago when we started negotiations, and it could occur today
without this new language. Put another way, NWA has been free to

contract with other carriers to fly all the 44 seat jets it
wants, without limitation. This new provision simply says that another
40 jet aircraft may be flown with 50 seats - an incremental change
of 6 seats. Second, it is understandable that the NWA MEC does not
wish to allow NWA to finance additional jet aircraft that would
not be flown by its pilots, especially in light of the very large
number of Northwest pilots who remain on furlough. Combined with a 15 %
pay cut, which is not insignificant, we believe it is
understandable the NWA MEC opted to agree to this provision. No pilot would
willingly agree to cut his own pay only to have those cost
savings go to finance another airline's operation.

Scope provisions necessarily impact the job opportunities of
others. In many respects, we faced similar issues when we
elected to limit Big Sky to 19 seat turbo prop operations. We did so
because we wanted to protect the viability of Mesaba Airlines,
and the careers of our pilots. Put yourself in the shoes of the NWA
MEC and consider what you might have chosen, given the various
alternatives. Keep in mind that the threat of bankruptcy still
looms, and that is a development that we should all view with extreme
alarm. If NWA files a Chapter 11 petition, it will have the
right to ask the bankruptcy court to void all of its contracts -including
its contract with the NWA pilots and including its code share
contract with Mesaba. If the Bridge Agreement helps to avoid a bankruptcy
filing, that is to our very great advantage.

There will likely be many hard choices and difficult decisions
for all ALPA MEC's before the industry comes back around. We must and
should view our fellow pilots as our allies --- even if we have
disagreements about the best course of action.

Fraternally,

Tom Wychor
Mesaba MEC Chairman

 

[T-handle]

but hey at least we got scope.....

 

[P38JLightning]

spin

>>>The TA allows for the conversion of up to 60-44 seat
jet aircraft into 50 seat jet aircraft, whereas under the
current agreement, the operation of additional 50 seaters was
prohibited. Additionally, and this is the provision that is probably of the
greatest concern to Mesaba pilots, the TA explicitly permits NWA
to add up to 40 more 50 seat jet aircraft, provided that such
aircraft are not flown by Mesaba, Pinnacle, or any other NWA affiliate.


So that means in the TA they put strict time limits on the "non affiliate" carrier, and will bring in Mesaba and Pinnacle and/or NWA pilots just as soon as they can, right?

Oh, they forgot to do that? Oh well, there's always next contract!

Let the RFP whoring continue!

 

[storminpilot]

Additionally, and this is the provision that is probably of the greatest concern to Mesaba pilots, the TA explicitly permits NWA to add up to 40 more 50 seat jet aircraft, provided that such aircraft are not flown by Mesaba, Pinnacle, or any other NWA affiliate.

Yeah, this means if USAirways tanks, then hello Mesa or Chautauqua or TranStates. Once you let them in, they don't go away.

 

[Catbird]

Sounds as though the boys at National have been serviceing your MEC a big helping of ALPA Kool Aid. Tell them to open the books and hire a Independent Auditor to construt a cost comparison. If you believe for one second the numbers generated by Alpa Financial your fools. How can the pilots at MESABA compare the cost to NWA without the financial facts? Does NWA have a pending contract with a contract carrier? Acquire the financial numbers independently. If they state the Alpa Mantra-(Confidential information or Confidentiality Agreement), run don't walk because your about to raped by Duane and his Salad Tossers, with the NWA Executives standing in the shadows laughing.

 

[avrodriverj85]

Well, we'll probably be ok, because our ALPA MEC attorney, Jane Schafts' husband is also the NWA ALPA MEC attorney. That makes it a level playing field with this bunch, right? Maybe it's time for the pilot group to contact some independent legal counsel and break away from this motley bunch?

If we as XJ pilots allow Wychor and his bitch*es to get away with it again, we'll get what we deserve and are not different then the other whores of the industry, hence the name MESA-ba.

 

[DoinTime]

Yeah, this means if USAirways tanks, then hello Mesa or Chautauqua or TranStates. Once you let them in, they don't go away.

Nobody has to tank to qualify for this provision. Consider this. Northwest can operate a maximum of 104 50-seat CRJ's. However, this number can be increased by 40 if Northwest does not have to find financing for those aircraft. Now, instead of Mesaba and Pinnacle being able find their own financing and bid these aircraft with some degree of favoritism via NWALPA we are being specifically excluded from the bidding with NWALPA's blessing. When it comes down to it this has nothing to do with being able to add capacity quickly should another airline liquidate. This has everything to do increasing whipsaw leverage against XJ and PCL. There is no way NW will choose to place any new aircraft with XJ or PCL beyond scheduled deliveries as all these aircraft will have to be 44-seaters.

 

[mckpickle]

This should be fun watching MESA and CHQ fight to undercut each other when AIrways tanks!!! I hope Comair gets it!!!!!!!!!! Or Air whisky or even Indy. Anyone but MESA. They need to be weened from the nipple!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mel Sharples]

Thanks to our "brothers" at NWA.

They smile to your face and scream words like "family" and "brand scope" as they are shoving the knife if your back to save their own skins.

Well, as a result of this little deal with the devil NWA ALPA and ALPA national have shown their true colors ** AGAIN **. After all, the mainline pilots' moto is: "You first, right after me."

And here all along we were supposed to worry about Big Sky. . .



Edit: I wanted to make this message CRYSTAL FREAKING CLEAR so Surplus1 wouldn't think this was new. I don't think I could live if he thought I was sss...sss...ssss....stuuu....ppp...ppp...pid.


.

 

[Catbird]

It would be prudent to begin a wholesale recall of the MEC members who like being Worthless Rump lickers. The worthless MEC members are boisting their stature at National at the expense of the Mesaba pilots. There is many examples of this corruption slithering around National. If the pilots don't take action they will recieve the Golden Kneepads as many have recieved before them for their passive ignorance. A recall is simple. The major point is to garner the support of the largest chapters MEC reps and if the vote looks as though it will fail. Demand a Roll Call vote, with the largest Chapters Reps carrying the Majority. If the LEC'c will not follow the wishes of the majority, recall the LEC members and proceed from there.

 

[surplus1]

Well, as a result of this little deal with the devil NWA ALPA and ALPA national have shown their true colors.

"ALPA national" has clearly shown its "true colors" for years. Where have you all been?
Don't you know that "brand scope" has been a scam from day one? Isn't your "leader" the chairman of ALPA national's "scope committee"?

There is nothing "new" about this so why are you surprised? Why are you suddenly complaining that it "hurts" when you've been holidng your ankles for years? What you're getting is the direct result of your own naivete.

Smell the coffee.

 

[Mel Sharples]

"ALPA national" has clearly shown its "true colors" for years. Where have you all been?
Don't you know that "brand scope" has been a scam from day one? Isn't your "leader" the chairman of ALPA national's "scope committee"?

There is nothing "new" about this so why are you surprised? Why are you suddenly complaining that it "hurts" when you've been holidng your ankles for years? What you're getting is the direct result of your own naivete.

Smell the coffee.

Easy, Francis. I never claimed that this came out of nowhere. I was implying that in recent discussion between the two MEC's they were reitterating brand scope. Notice my comment about the mainline moto. I didn't see, "Gee, guys. We never saw this coming." Just making a point, again, one more time...

Did I expect it to happen? Not really. I'm just harping on the same topic.

So thanks for jumping my ass and putting words in my mouth. Apparently you are all-knowing so next time I will just PM you directly to get all of the answers to life's little problems and save myself the embarrassment of your public tongue lashing.

Good day, sir.


.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

And there are those who wonder why the RJDC has so much support. The RJDC leaders have been saying all along that "Brand Scope" was all a load of bull.


We now see they were right all along.

 

[avrodriverj85]

It would be prudent to begin a wholesale recall of the MEC members who like being Worthless Rump lickers. The worthless MEC members are boisting their stature at National at the expense of the Mesaba pilots. There is many examples of this corruption slithering around National. If the pilots don't take action they will recieve the Golden Kneepads as many have recieved before them for their passive ignorance. A recall is simple. The major point is to garner the support of the largest chapters MEC reps and if the vote looks as though it will fail. Demand a Roll Call vote, with the largest Chapters Reps carrying the Majority. If the LEC'c will not follow the wishes of the majority, recall the LEC members and proceed from there.

Yes, and their names are as follows. Representing the Socialist Republic of Minnesota - MEC Chair Capt. Tom Wychor, MEC Vice Chair Capt. Scott Patz, and Sec/Tres Capt. Jonathan Marut. LEC Reps Capt. Jeril Metzger, FO Kris Pierson, and Capt Mitch Peecher. (I don't know any of the DTW or MEM reps, so I can't comment) - Notice that only one rep is an FO, ALL the rest are captains. Not one rep on the negotiating committee during last years contract talk was an FO, ALL Captains. I guess in the mind of our MEC, FO's dont have much to contribute to the process?

For example: I know that a resolution was passed unanimously by the LEC reps from DTW and MEM last month and was to be taken to the BOD meeting for a vote. The resolution was drafted by concerned pilots that wanted MEMRAT for any future scope or NW70 language. Of course our socialist ALPA friends up here in MSP didn't want any part of it. So, when it came time to vote on this resolution at the BOD, Wychor pulls a fast one and brings in an ALPA National attorney, who proceeds to rip the resolution to shreds, citing the language isn't strong enough or enforcable. Guess where it ended? In the trash pile !

Isn't it time to put an end to this nitwittery and re-call ALL of our MEC?

 

[DoinTime]

Yes, and their names are as follows. Representing the Socialist Republic of Minnesota - MEC Chair Capt. Tom Wychor, MEC Vice Chair Capt. Scott Patz, and Sec/Tres Capt. Jonathan Marut. LEC Reps Capt. Jeril Metzger, FO Kris Pierson, and Capt Mitch Peecher. (I don't know any of the DTW or MEM reps, so I can't comment) - Notice that only one rep is an FO, ALL the rest are captains. Not one rep on the negotiating committee during last years contract talk was an FO, ALL Captains. I guess in the mind of our MEC, FO's dont have much to contribute to the process?

Avrodriver....Please tell me you know more about the processes of ALPA leadership than this. If you are seriously in need of answers to the questions you posed you need to sit down and do some thinking about why things are the way they are.

If your MEC is in true need of a recall by all means that should be pursued. Think about what your are going to do without these guys first though. The most important reason why most of these guys are in elected office is that they were first willing to do a job that carries with it little, or no, compensation. Its not easy to find someone who is willing to forgo most of their personal time to deal with the problems of other individuals.

I assume by the amount of complaining that you and Catbird do that you were both denied your attempts to improve your surroundings through elected office. That's unfortunate. I'm sure through your dealings with trying to get elected that you can truly appreciate the personal sacrifices all local and master level ALPA reps make on a daily basis.

Management teams drool at the thought of having a rookie group of ALPA reps in office. If there is anything worse than having corrupted Union leadership its having clueless, inexperienced Union leadership. Be careful of what you wish for. You just might get it.

 

[surplus1]

If there is anything worse than having corrupted Union leadership its having clueless, inexperienced Union leadership.

What do you call it when you have both?

 

[surplus1]

Easy, Francis. I never claimed that this came out of nowhere. I was implying that in recent discussion between the two MEC's they were reitterating brand scope. Notice my comment about the mainline moto. I didn't see, "Gee, guys. We never saw this coming." Just making a point, again, one more time...

Fear not Sharples I wasn't picking on you personally at all, I was picking on your entire group. I wasn't jumping your butt, I was telling all of you at the same time. I did not ask where you had been, I asked where you all had been.

You just said you didn't expect it to happen well, what did you expect? Love and kisses from the NWA MEC?

I don't know how long you have been there personally but a lot of you have been there long enoug. First they were promising you "flow-through" if you would support them in their strike. You did. You got 2 weeks off without pay in exchange and when the strike was over it turned out they didn't have time for that. You were suckered in, starting with your own "leader" who's been sucking up to assorted NW Chairmen and ALPANA officials for at least a decade and the only thing your pilot group has ever gotten out of it was meaningless speeches about unity and family from people like Mugger and DW. Kool Aid, of which you drank every bit.

The NWA MEC represents the interests of NW pilots, not MSA pilots. It doesn't care what happens to you, it never has, and it never will. You are seen as a threat, not "family". Get that through you heads.

They just set you up for more whipsaw with yet another feeder and they don't care. There's nothing wrong with what they're doing, what's wrong is what you haven't been doing, and that is taking care of your own interests. ALPA isn't doing that for you either. There job is to take your money and keep you quiet by feeding you another placebo whenever you get restless. Read the letter you just got from your Chairman. Does he sound like he's upset about what's happened to you? Hell no! The whole thing is an attempt to white wash the NW decision and justify the ALPA position. He chairs one of the most useless and ineffective national committes is all of ALPA; the BSIC, which is nothing more than a tool to keep regional carriers hoping for a kiss while mainline carriers are screwing them.

And you all are by no means the only regional that this has been happening to. The methodology is a plague that affects all regionals. Only one has had the courage to stand up for itself.

Why don't you ask some old Air Willie pilots what the UAL MEC did to them and how much alpa "helped" them with it? Look at the 16-year contract that ALPA "helped" the EGL pilots to achieve and called "industry leading". Look at the flow through that alpa helped them to get. Look at how they fell for the APA "unity" program and marched with the AA pilots, whose leaders were plotting to screw them at the same time. Look at the J4J program and how alpa helped the U MEC to screw the wholly owned's. Look at how alpa supported the scope clause that created "Freedom" and shafted the Mesa pilots, then the TSA pilots, then the CHQ pilots (who don't even belong to ALPA). Look at how alpa suckered the COEX pilots so they could get CAL back into the union, then saddled them with a joint MEC gimmick removing their power to decide their own fate. At least they have had the courage to dump that scheme, but they're still drinking other colors of alpa kool aid. It's not a one carrier scheme it's an epidemic and it works because regional pilots let it happen to themselves.

Like fools we've allowed our own union to descriminate against us and make us into 2nd class citizens eager for whatever crumbs they throw us while they fail to protect our interests and make no effort to resolve the conflicts with the mainline groups. They treat us like red headed step children and what do we do? We elect "leaders" who enjoy being petted and entertained by their masters when they go to DC and Herndon, while the people that elected them get shafted.

I'm not giving you a tongue lashing Sharples, I'm giving it to your entire group and all the others that let the crap continue from a union that "uses" them.

You don't need to PM me for answers. What you need to is open your eyes and protect your own interests instead of expecting alpa or some mainline MEC to take care of you.

I'm sorry if you don't like what I've said but its time to stop beating around the bush and tell it like it is. I challenge you to show me one example of where what I've said is not the truth.

Remember, I'm a regional pilot too and have been a victim of the same thing.

 

[saabservant]

Unfortunately, Surplus1 is right

Although he comes across as a wacko nut, using vulgar visuals to get his points across, it is pretty hard to argue with history.
Most of us hoped, but did not really believe that nwalpa would expend any negotiation leverage to close the door to another airlink partner. That they actually agreed to it with no restrictions to where that partner may operate, and no requirement that it be eventually merged into the existing structure tells us where we stand. Mainline sees us not as partners in the fight against executives but as a threat. All the cumbaya talk is just that.
We should have shut it down to get better pay and rules; the Big Sky scope the mec is so proud of is now meaningless.
As surplus1 has pointed out, brand scope and a family of brand pilots is an idea to protect mainline from the "whores" at their regionals who make so much less.
Flowthroughs are not about career progression, but as furlough protection for mainline.

I know our mec leadership, and i still believe them to be hard-working and dedicated to alpa, because i think they believe we are bound, for good or bad, to nwa alpa and national. As has happened at other brands, we find that the goodwill and desire to help is a one-way street. The pilots at msa are not a bunch who think we should grow until we are bigger than mainline, we just want a reasonable return and a place at the table for the investment we have made for nwa. For this, nwa has now kicked us to the street. Nice solidarity.
We are a band of brothers all right, but only at mainline.

When I was young, and I would protest "not fair!" to my father, he would say,
"I win!" I'd ask why, and he'd say "because of the golden rule- I've got the gold, so I make the rules!". I know he had my best interest at heart.
With alpa, that is not the case. We are not represented equally, and this case proves it. It should'nt have to be this way, but it is fact.

What can we do about this? I don't know what would be effective...a lawsuit? We can't prove damages until they actually bring the carrier into our routes and hubs. A march and protest at their mec meetings? How about an old-fashioned a**-whupping. Maybe its time for less talk and more yelling...

thanks for the lesson, the ky jelly and kneepad references would be funny if they were not so true...

 

[JohnDoe]

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again:

It is not, and will never be, possible for one union to fairly represent different employee groups that each have different contracts (with vastly different payscales), flying different equipment, and all trying to get some of the same flying and growth.

And I have yet to see anybody who thinks it is provide the solution, even after asking.


PS: Avrojetdriver, once again, if you are so sick and tired of your mec and lec, why don't you do something about it? You and your pilot group elected them.......

 

[Redtailer]

Absolutely amazing all of the Monday morning QB'ing going on here.

I want someone, ANYONE, to tell me exactly how much were the ALPA negotiators to give up to keep all 40 RJs for the current Airlinks..

Another 5% pay cut?

No wait, how about 25% less sick and vacation time.

Oh, I know. Just let the airlinks fly the DC9s.

Point is, ALL of the pain is being felt throughout the NWA pilot group and the Airlinks as a whole are STILL EXPANDING with NWA pilots on the street! This agreement does not affect current staffing levels at the airlinks and it does not affect pay.

Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy.

 

[redflyer65]

Airlinks expanding doesn't have a thing to do with it. It's managements fault that those pilots are still on the street. Let's get that straight. How many DC-9's have been retired recently? How much flying lost? Is NWA just replacing the DC-10's or is there a positive hull count with the 330's? That last question I really don't know the answer to, but the other ones I already know.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Absolutely amazing all of the Monday morning QB'ing going on here.

I want someone, ANYONE, to tell me exactly how much were the ALPA negotiators to give up to keep all 40 RJs for the current Airlinks..

Another 5% pay cut?

No wait, how about 25% less sick and vacation time.

Oh, I know. Just let the airlinks fly the DC9s.

Point is, ALL of the pain is being felt throughout the NWA pilot group and the Airlinks as a whole are STILL EXPANDING with NWA pilots on the street! This agreement does not affect current staffing levels at the airlinks and it does not affect pay.

Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy.

Redtailer,
I don't expect any sympathy from you. However, do you really expect the regional ALPA pilots to just accept that the mainline "owns" their flying? Do you really expect us at the regional level to just accept what you hand us? Do you really expect us at the regional level to simply accept this BS about "brand scope"? Do you really expect us at the regional level to believe anything that comes from Woerth/Wychor regarding "brand scope"?

I don't expect sympathy from you, but forgive me if I am not concerned with your job security while I fight for my own against ALPA's predatory bargaining. ALPA created this mess and you want to blame us - that dog won't hunt Redtailer.

 

[Redtailer]

While it may be management's fault, it is the low wages on the RJs that are the culprit.

Actually, the net total of aircraft on NWA property has INCREASED by 5 over the last 2 years. The number of hulls is a farce. To actually understand what is happening you have to look at the utilization.

There is NO doubt that RJs have been taking over -9 routes. Just look at MEM as an example. The lines on the NWA side of the house has continuously decreased over the last few years and have been replaced in MEM by the RJs. Pinnacle has been hiring hundreds over the last few years while hundreds of NWA pilots have been put out of their job all courtesy of mainline NWA financing.

Inclusive Scope,

Do you really expect us at the regional level to just accept what you hand us?

Short answer, YES.

Here is why. NWAC wholly owns NWA Airlines. This is one entity, one corporation, on group.

Whether you like it or not, and this is really important for you to undertand, the Airlinks are nothing more than contractors. Meaning, you cannot demand what flying is given to you. If you are building a house, how can I as a contractor come up to you and say "I demand that I build your roof?" It just doesn't work that way.

ALPA created this mess and you want to blame us - that dog won't hunt Redtailer.

You are absolutely right, ALPA never should have given up any type of turbojet flying. If we could go back in time I am sure that's exactly what would have happened. Then you could fly a SF340 for the rest of your life. Is that better?

But I really want to get this straight, NWA ALPA should not put any restrictions on how many RJs the Airlinks can fly, but we should sacrifice more to stop NWA mgmt from outsourcing the flying to the likes of Mesa, CHQ etc.

You don't see some hypocrisy here?

Here is an idea, and I really mean this. If you are serious about wanting to do all of the RJ flying than your pilot group needs to make the sacrifice to require your MGMT to negotiate with NWAC to be the sole provider of RJ service. Then it will truly belong to you. But are you willing to make that kind of a sacrifice?

Untill you do that, you have NO RIGHT to complain about the circumstances that you find yourself in.

 

[saabservant]

Absolutely amazing all of the Monday morning QB'ing going on here.

I want someone, ANYONE, to tell me exactly how much were the ALPA negotiators to give up to keep all 40 RJs for the current Airlinks..

Another 5% pay cut?

No wait, how about 25% less sick and vacation time.

Oh, I know. Just let the airlinks fly the DC9s.

Point is, ALL of the pain is being felt throughout the NWA pilot group and the Airlinks as a whole are STILL EXPANDING with NWA pilots on the street! This agreement does not affect current staffing levels at the airlinks and it does not affect pay.

Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy.

It is NOT about demanding additional aircraft!
You seem to suffer from the delusion that we at the airlinks want to take over everything, which is pure B.S. We are not the enemy!
This is about protecting what we are currently doing against an outsource threat! Wake the he** up!

The ability to quickly step into a market with airlink support in place is a good business decision, but not without restrictions. Do you think mainline is exempt
from a further loss of dc-9 flying?

About your pay cut and (horrors) new contribution to health care, tell a six-year saab fo making 30,000 about it, and he will smile in amazement. Everyone has a little pain here...
And who let all this happen? Senior alpa pilots, who sold out eveyone junior to protect their pay and pensions. The scope clauses? An utter failure.

 

[avrodriverj85]

Redtailer,

This attitude towards the RJ pilots and regional pilots in general is very becoming of you. Let me throw it back at you and say I hope you are forced to take MORE concessions, I hope more mainline pilots are furloughed and you guys give another 30% in pay-cuts; then we can listen to more of your complaining on how it's the regional pilots fault. I'm sorry you can't make it in this world on $93,000 a year, but hey - whatever !! Stop living beyond your means. If you can't take it, quit !!

Maybe when the mainline redtailers realize they've had enough, then we'll all come together as a REAL union and stand up against management and say 'NO MORE'. No More whipsaw and No More of this moronic ALPA agenda. As long as the ALPA greed and politics continue, you'll take more pay-cuts and we'll be flying those Saab340's at 1/8 the salary.

 

[Redtailer]

Saabservant,

I can respect the pay rate at the regionals because I have done my time there. I am well aware of the pay scales.

Actually there are those that are demanding more aircraft at the expense of mainline jobs, but I realize they are not in the majority.

I for one DO NOT want another carrier on the premises, particularly Mesa for various reasons not the least of which being reliability, but that is a Mgmt call.

However, you will have to explain why I or anyone else on mainline property should take even more of a pay cut for your job security. When this is negotiated everything has a price tag that must be paid. Are YOU willing to give up 15% or more of your pay to secure 40 more RJs? If so call your reps and let them know.

Just how did senior Alpa pilots sell you out? NWA MEC negotiates for the NWA pilots, not PCL, and not MSA. If you have low wages, it is your MEC fault, if you don't like the fact that other carriers are getting RJs and you're not then YOUR MEC needs to negotiate it. Stop blaming others for your contract.

 

[Redtailer]

avrodrivrj85,

Sorry if it offends you that I refer to the Airlinks as contractors, but what else are they? Let's see, they are public entities each with their own stock ticker, seperate managements, except for a couple of BOD seats. Completely different financial coffers. Not majority owned by NWAC. And the only relation they have with NWAC is through a contract between two distinct corporate entities that must be renewed on a timely basis. The CEO/President of NWAC has no say so over the mgmts of the Airlinks. Influence, yes. Control, no. Lastly, look at your pay stub. What company's name is on it? If you're not happy about your circumstances that is where you need to look to, not another company.

That's the reality of it. If you don't like it, oh well...

Let me throw it back at you and say I hope you are forced to take MORE concessions, I hope more mainline pilots are furloughed and you guys give another 30% in pay-cuts;

First off that's just repugnant. It speaks volumes of your character. I never suggested that any regional pilot take a pay cut or be laid off for my own benefit. I just said that NWA ALPA should not take pay cuts or layoff more of it's members to keep flying for the Airlinks. That is not their responsibility. That is the job of those airlines' MECs. Which by the way this TA does not cause any regional pilot to earn one less penny or cause even one job loss.


Be careful of what you wish for, read an article from Michael Boyd on www.aviationplanning.com He does airline forecasting in case you never heard of him, and he is usually spot on.

About a year or two ago he made a statement about the decreasing mainline wages. Bottom line, if mainline wages come down far enough the regionals will no longer have the cost advantage for outsourcing. It will cost about the same or cheaper to keep that flying on mainline property.

Next thing you know, voila! RJs on mainline property. Not that I wish ill on anyone, unlike some folks here, but RJs would start to show up on mainline property. Remember, there is NOTHING contractually keeping those RJs from ever coming to mainline.

 

[avrodriverj85]

avrodrivrj85,

First off that's just repugnant. It speaks volumes of your character. I never suggested that any regional pilot take a pay cut or be laid off for my own benefit.

This sounds like Kerry and his "I actually voted for the $87 billion, before I voted against it". You don't need to say it, NWA MEC, the TA, and the actions of your pilot group with NW70, speak volumes of the repugnant behavior by your group.

I just said that NWA ALPA should not take pay cuts or layoff more of it's members to keep flying for the Airlinks.

No, but the attitude and the actions from your MEC and its pilots make it clear that it's the airlink pilots who have to remain flexible to allow mainline to maintain their livelihoods.

Be careful of what you wish for, read an article from Michael Boyd on www.aviationplanning.com He does airline forecasting in case you never heard of him, and he is usually spot on.

Michael Boyd is a crank. Let me share my own aviation forecasting. USAirways goes under and there are 5 Airlinks, not 3 - flying around on the NWA property. Who will your MEC and pilot group blame then?

About a year or two ago he made a statement about the decreasing mainline wages.

And? I think we'd all agree they were getting out of hand.

I want to feel as unsympathetic toward your cause as you guys are against ours. We are no longer in this together.

 

[Redtailer]

This sounds like Kerry and his "I actually voted for the $87 billion, before I voted against it". You don't need to say it, NWA MEC, the TA, and the actions of your pilot group with NW70, speak volumes of the repugnant behavior by your group.

You're kidding right? The TA does not cause a decrease of projected growth (not that this should matter), no job losses and no pay cuts for any regional pilot. So I fail to see where ANY regional pilot got screwed. The jets in question are NEW growth and unless YOUR mgmt negotiated them then you are not entitled to them. That does not mean you may not get them, but you do not OWN it. Keep in mind there was nothing specifically preventing mgmt from going with another carrier anyway. This was a way for mgmt to get more RJs faster. Also, this was a way to make sure we were not buying more RJs with our pay cuts. Tell you what, why don't you and everyone at the regionals donate a percentage of your check to NWAC so that we can buy some A320s for mainline. That will give you more aircraft to feed in to right? That's what I thought.


The NW70 is deferred until Feb. Once again, I'm sorry if you feel wronged but I don't see how you are getting screwed by the NWA pilots not wanting to give away flying they already are entitled to per the contract. How would you feel if NWA pilots decided to drop the floor from 51 seats down to 40? All of the RJs would then come to mainline and anyone not in a turboprop gets laid off? That is what you are asking.

No, but the attitude and the actions from your MEC and its pilots make it clear that it's the airlink pilots who have to remain flexible to allow mainline to maintain their livelihoods.

Flexible? How? What has NWA MEC done to make the regionals so bad? Last time I checked that was due to the contracts that YOUR MEC negotiated, YOUR mgmt and NWAC mgmt. NWA MEC has no effect on that. They just contractually require NWAC to only outsource X number of jets with some restrictions. NWA MEC does not allocate, schedule, or maintain those aircraft. So explain to me exactly HOW NWA MEC has made your life so miserable.

I would support any Airlink pilot in their efforts to obtain a better contract for themselves, but do not expect me to hand over my job so that you can grow.

 

[avrodriverj85]

Redtailer

Like I said in an earlier post, we are no longer in this together. We never really were. It was all just double-talk by your group and ALPA, - "family brand scope", my arse. That whole nonsense of a single seniority list or "flow up" was just a carrot to keep us under control and the wheels turning. Don't for a minute blame your furloughs on the regional pilots. If you really were a regional pilot before you went to mainline, then you are as much of the problem as you claim we are. Why? Because you agreed to work for such paltry wages to "build multi/PIC time". Once you skipped to the other side, you forgot where you came from and the sense of entitlements kicked in.

Like I said earlier - I hope there are 10 Airlinks out there one day. All under-cutting each other. Flying for peanuts. Hell, bring back 'pay-for training". Then karma might kick in and 5 years from now, you'll be back in a 50 seat CRJ, bitching and moaning about having to fly with a 24 year old kid with 1100 hrs flying into Flint one stormy night, wondering how the industry went into the toilet.

Pay Now or Pay Later - your choice.