ALPA "Express?"

[jppt2000]

Shame on me? Kiss my a$$.


Yes, shame on you.
Funny how you used dollar signs

"have nots" ,
Well there you have it, you proved my point you wrote it!


Mainline: Haves

Regional: "have nots"



I'll bet you think you are among the best and brightest,
and you just can't imagine why the Regional folks think there is a
"caste" system.

 

[Majik]

Here's the deal I never understood about ALPA. How can 1 union simultaneously represent the best interests of both Mainline and Regional pilots. From my perspective, it seems that they follow the $$ (Mainline), but don't want to turn down the dues of the Regionals. Some issues seem to conflict between Mainline interests vs Regionals.

If I were to get a divorce, I wouldn't hire the same lawyer that represents my wife. That would be a conflict of interest.
In the case of ALPA, where does their interest lie???

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Shame on me? Kiss my a$$.


Yes, shame on you.
Funny how you used dollar signs

"have nots" ,
Well there you have it, you proved my point you wrote it!


Mainline: Haves

Regional: "have nots"




----------Uh, what the hell are you talking about?



I'll bet you think you are among the best and brightest,

You better believe I do!

 

[Typhoon1244]

People like you (and your numbers are growing) have a huge victim complex. It's getting awfully tiresome.

By "people like you" (or as Ross Perot put it, "you people"), do you mean "express pilots?" I see the ALPA segregation plan is already working!

FDJ, I've come to respect the h_ll out of you after seeing your comments on the Eastern thread. You are probably one of many Delta pilots that have a realistic, level-headed view of the mainline/regional situation. Please understand, however, that I've spoken to many of your coworkers who have told me straight out that they wish my job would just vanish along with the airplanes. I got the "jumpseat inquisition" so many times, I can't bear to even ask for a Delta jumpseat anymore.

One Delta pilot told me: "We should never have allowed you guys to have jets." My, what a regal attitude that is! There may even be a shred of truth to this idea. The fact is, though, thanks to the CRJ, I'm living a pretty good life in the post-9/11 world...and to think that this as_hole would wish it away from me...it's pretty hard to swallow.

Another said: "You want to fly a seventy-seat jet? Come apply at Delta. We'll have lots!" That's the only guy I hope is on furlough. I'd love to tell him, "you want to flow onto my seniority list? Fill out an application. You can 'flow' right onto the bottom."

ALPA is not out to get you.

My point is that many of us are being led to believe by behavior like this that ALPA's mainline pilots are out to get us, and the management teams are loving it! If management can divide us and keep us at each other's throats, it will tear ALPA apart. It's not dissimilar from what you and I--or more precisely, our fathers--saw at Eastern.

This kind of segregation (Major vs. "Express") is union-busting in its most basic form...and I am horrified to see ALPA doing their part to accelerate the process! All of us, all airline pilots are going to have to come to some kind of understanding or ALPA as we know it will disintegrate. We have to stop seeing each other as a threat.

(Perhaps if someday Delta goes on strike and ASA/Comair honor the picket line, or vice versa...that might do the trick! That might demonstrate our willingness to work together. I hope we don't reach that point, though...)

 

[enigma]

outside looking in

As I've written before, I'm on the outside of this issue. However, I can't believe the lack of insight that ALPA has shown with this issue. As we speak, ALPA is being sued because some members, who happen to fly RJ's at wholy-owned regionals, think that ALPA has failed to provide them equal representation. (please don't bother refining/correcting that point, it's not the real point and I'm not saying that ALPA did or didn't)

You would think that ALPA would be doing everything possible to treat all members equally, or at least be trying to give that perception. Now they come out with a newsletter that just reinforces the perception that ALPA considers the regionals on a different level than the majors. Even if ALPA is totally evenhanded, this gives the perception that the they are not. And it is generally recognized that perception is stronger than reality.

What are they thinking?

On a personal level, I'd da*n sure be PO'd if ALPA decided that I needed a seperate newsletter just because I work for a lowfare carrier, especially if I already thought that ALPA looked down upon me.

regards,
8N

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: outside looking in

You would think that ALPA would be doing everything possible to treat all members equally, or at least be trying to give that perception. Now they come out with a newsletter that just reinforces the perception that ALPA considers the regionals on a different level than the majors. Even if ALPA is totally evenhanded, this gives the perception that the they are not. What are they thinking?

Very well said. For an "outsider," you picked up on this issue pretty quickly.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

By "people like you" (or as Ross Perot put it, "you people"), do you mean "express pilots?" I see the ALPA segregation plan is already working!



-----I'm sorry that you misunderstood me, Ty. I would never use "people like you" to describe a group of pilots. I used it against one person who had attempted to paint my group with a broad brush (the same thing we have been accused of doing). This poster seemed to be part of a growing group of people who want to play the victim. The "people like you" described those who exhibit those traits, not those who fly a particular kind of airplane. I'm sorry if you got the wrong idea. I look at rj pilots as fellow aviators, some good, some bad. Just like I look like pilots of any airline or airplane. I have tried to convey that feeling in my posts, even during disagreements.



FDJ, I've come to respect the h_ll out of you after seeing your comments on the Eastern thread. You are probably one of many Delta pilots that have a realistic, level-headed view of the mainline/regional situation. Please understand, however, that I've spoken to many of your coworkers who have told me straight out that they wish my job would just vanish along with the airplanes. I got the "jumpseat inquisition" so many times, I can't bear to even ask for a Delta jumpseat anymore.



----You also have my respect (and thanks for the compliment). I apologize for those members of my group who act like jerks. Believe me, however, I have found them on both sides of the fence!



One Delta pilot told me: "We should never have allowed you guys to have jets."


-----Actually, I agree with him 100%. In fact, we should never have allowed ANY codesharing. Perhaps if we had exhibited more foresight, we would all be a part of the same list right now. Please don't take offense, because none is intended.


My, what a regal attitude that is! There may even be a shred of truth to this idea. The fact is, though, thanks to the CRJ, I'm living a pretty good life in the post-9/11 world...and to think that this as_hole would wish it away from me...it's pretty hard to swallow.


If he wished it away from you, than he is an "A-hole." If, however, he wished we had done things differently in the past that would have made us all part of the same high paying airline, than I cannot fault him. I wasn't there, so I don't know his tone or intent.


Another said: "You want to fly a seventy-seat jet? Come apply at Delta. We'll have lots!" That's the only guy I hope is on furlough. I'd love to tell him, "you want to flow onto my seniority list? Fill out an application. You can 'flow' right onto the bottom."

---------Again, A-holes everywhere! You'll never believe some guys I have run into from your side! Some of them are even suing to bankrupt our union and eliminate our scope clause! My point is, there are jerks everywhere. They will always be jerks, regardless of what uniform they wear.


My point is that many of us are being led to believe by behavior like this that ALPA's mainline pilots are out to get us, and the management teams are loving it! If management can divide us and keep us at each other's throats, it will tear ALPA apart. It's not dissimilar from what you and I--or more precisely, our fathers--saw at Eastern.


-----------The perception that you are out to get us is also prevelent. Neither is correct, although the fact that your airline is rapidly growing while ours is shrinking should lead one to conclude that if we were out to get you, we suck at it!


This kind of segregation (Major vs. "Express") is union-busting in its most basic form...and I am horrified to see ALPA doing their part to accelerate the process! All of us, all airline pilots are going to have to come to some kind of understanding or ALPA as we know it will disintegrate. We have to stop seeing each other as a threat.


If you interpret a newsletter as "union busting" than we'll just have to disagree. You have spent a lengthy post articulating some of the problems and differences between mainline and regional pilots. Then you tell me that there is no difference between the two. While that may be true as far as piloting skills go, you have demonstrated that it is not true as far as attitudes or agendas are concerned. I would hope that the newsletter will at least discuss some of your concerns (which are signifigant enough to prompt some of your coworkers to file a lawsuit). I am not saying that is all that should be done, but I would prefer to argue substance and policy rather than a few sheets of paper.



(Perhaps if someday Delta goes on strike and ASA/Comair honor the picket line, or vice versa...that might do the trick! That might demonstrate our willingness to work together. I hope we don't reach that point, though...)

Well, we have already honored CMR's (as well as set up their strike center, contribute to their funds, walk the picket lines, etc). I believe that most of you would do the same for us (although your MEC refused to sign our struck work policy when we were negotiating). I guess what I am trying to say in my usual convoluted way is that I agree with you! I would love to see us work together.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Tim and Surplus,

Thanks for the compliments. I appreciate them, as I do try to be cordial. It was nice of you guys to notice and mention it.

Surplus,
Thank you for at least finding fault with the articles in the newsletter. That argument at least has some substance. The fact that you get an extra newsletter (in addition to our usual mailings) did not seem cause enough to complain. If the content is incorrect, however, that seems a more worthwhile complaint.

 

[abenaki]

Typhoon,
Do you really believe that the DAL pilots have the fortitude to go on strike? Or honor an ASA or Comair picket line? They sure were a LOT of help to the Comair pilots during the strike in '01, weren't they? Yea, right......

 

[MetroSheriff]

Typhoon,
Do you really believe that the DAL pilots have the fortitude to go on strike? Or honor an ASA or Comair picket line? They sure were a LOT of help to the Comair pilots during the strike in '01, weren't they? Yea, right......

Flame Bait...

 

[Britpilot]

Enigma,
As was said here before, you have understood our complaint regarding ALPA. There are many of us who are concerned about this issue even when our own MEC downplays our concerns. I have to say I am yet to be convinced that there is a level playing field with mainline and the "express" carriers. I wonder how the mainline pilots would react to an express pilot as ALPA president?

FDJ,
You have many valid points in your posts and I can see both sides of the coin here. It is true that we must attend to our best interests on all these issues. However all this in-union distrust could have been prevented and could still be prevented by the adoption of a single seniority list within our respective companies. This will,of course have to be a negotiated item and usually there is insufficient support from the mainline ranks for such a proposal as something would have to be given up in order to gain this.

The next few years will be interesting for us all. At the moment it would appear that the mainline carriers are indeed shrinking in order to replace that flying with smaller aircraft (please don't call them RJ's) Only time will tell if this ploy will be succesful.


As a side note, I have been actively attempting to remove "RJ" from ATC vocabulary. I fly the E-145 or the EMB-145 that is it's type, the same goes for the Canadair or the Avro. If we all refer to our aircraft by type then we can erase the "RJ" terminology from the airwaves.
This is also a safety issue with so many types at the busier airports it is important to identify the correct aircraft to follow, and besides, I have never heard ATC refer to a DC-9 as an "RJ" even though it is.

 

[FD109]

Those who forget the past....

First I'd like to thank FlyDeltasJets and Typhoon1244 for your support on the "What made Eastern go under" thread.

You guys were in absolute, total agreement on that issue both on that thread and in real-time, real life. You both walked the picket line with your fathers and understand exactly what happened at EAL. I hope that very soon some agreement or some action occurs that puts you in agreement on the mainline/regional issue too.

With my Eastern background, I may be paranoid by seeing a Lorenzo behind every airline CEO's door, but I don't think so. Most of them are just a little smoother and slicker than Lorenzo. I think they all have the same basic goals, and I don't think any of you will like it if they meet their goals regarding employee costs and working conditions.

As an outsider, I see managements manipulating the mainline vs. regional issue to drive a wedge between as many pilot groups as they can. The divide and couquer strategy is so basic and so easy to use, and using it makes it so easy to hide who the real enemy is. When I hear fellow ALPA members calling each other names over the radio, I can only shake my head and think, "Guys (and girls), don't let them do this to you."

As far as the ALPA issue is concerned: I don't think ALPA national has figured out how to handle it yet. Sometimes they aren't the quickest or swiftest on picking up on new situations! In this case, I'd really hate to be in their shoes. Nevertheless, ALPA at the national level isn't the issue here any more than it was at Eastern.

You guys/girls at the mainline carriers and associated regionals need to get together in some way and take this issue away from your managements. If you don't, I'm afraid that eventually it will cause a total breakdown in ALPA and your individual ALPA groups that will destroy you. Believe me, none of you ever want to be faced with the decision of WHETHER OR NOT to cross a picket line. And certainly not because your managements have manipulated you into hating another group enough to make you cross their line.

I saw a seniority merger proposal a while back for Delta/ASA/Comair that hurt everbody a little, helped everybody a little, and that was fair overall. I don't know if that is the answer or not, but it sure looked to me like it took control of the issue away from management and put it back in the control of the people most affected: the pilots who fly the airplanes.

There is a lot of work to be done. I hope that both sides will be pragmatic enough to recognize that the more you fight each other, the less well you'll be able to fight the real adversary. A family feud certainly won't help you face the threat of a new "low cost carrier."

 

[surplus1]

Tim and Surplus,

Thanks for the compliments. I appreciate them, as I do try to be cordial. It was nice of you guys to notice and mention it.

Surplus,
Thank you for at least finding fault with the articles in the newsletter. That argument at least has some substance. The fact that you get an extra newsletter (in addition to our usual mailings) did not seem cause enough to complain. If the content is incorrect, however, that seems a more worthwhile complaint.

FDJ,

You are most welcome, sir. I feel personally that you have earned what I said.

Re the new newsletter, aside from its content my basic objective is that I find it divisive, if not in fact most definitely in perception. What people believe, i.e., perceive to be correct, is often more damaging than the actual facts.

As an example, in another thread you commented negatively on an article re the RJDC litigation published in AIN Online. As you know, I support the cause of the RJDC. Nevertheless, I found your comments to be justified. Not because I agree with what you said but because I understood, after reading the article myself, how you could come to the conclusions you expressed. Others might well do the same. I thought enough of your remarks to express my concerns directly to Captain Ford, a man that I know personally and highly respect. I can't say that he was misquoted or not, but I did tell him that the author did him no favors in that article.

You and I have disagreed often and sometimes intensely about the the issues involved in that litigation as well as the circumstances that brought it about and the reason for its existence. I may be wrong but I honestly believe that the differences we have, you and I, could probably be resolved if it were possible for us to discuss these issues face to face rather than long distance on these bulletin boards. I believe there are many on both sides of these issues who could and would do likewise if real dialogue between us were made possible.

On the other had, there are others from your side that I have difficulty respecting based on their remarks here and elsewhere. I have little doubt you feel much the same about many on my side. That is unfortunate, but it is not possible to please all of the people all of the time.

That brings me to the post by FD109 (apparently a rEAL pilot or at least the son of one). It was an excellent post FD109 and I wish that I could have written it. Kudos.

Far too many of my friends were lost to the profession in the EAL debacle. While never an EAL pilot myself, I haven't read of those events, I lived through them both with my frieds who walked the line and "inside" the hallowed halls of our union.

I haven't spent much time in the thread that FD109 speaks of but I now will review it. More importantly, I have known many of the players personally and many of the rEAL who struggled on the sidelines. I still communicate with quite a few of them. Some were forced out forever, others had to start over and have made it, still others now serve in relatively mediocre jobs by comparison. Most of my friends are now retired, but none of us will ever forget.

There was much "unity" in our union when it all began and much betrayal and division by the time it all ended. Some of that is of course recorded, much of it remains only in the memories of those that were there. I would never want to witness it again.

The current dispute within our union could well lead to its ultimate demise. None of us will be better off in the long run if we allow that to happen. That is why I participate in all of this. While I will not relinquish my principles and don't expect you to relinquish yours, I would rather see us seek a way to resolve our differences peacfully than be forced to kill each other in their defense and a war of attrition.

All war is evil. Civil war remains the greatest evil of all for it sets brother against brother, father against son. It is extremely difficult to find an outcome in which the spoils of victory exceed the in value the tragedies of the event itself. We should strive to avoid it in every way possible, even if we both have to make some concessions.

Regards.

PS. FD109, thank you for you post. Regretably I predict that the next "new LCC carrier" that you see will be sired by the management of Delta Air Lines. Stay tuned.

 

[abenaki]

Civil war is devisive, Surplus. A divided union will fall.

But, personally I wonder if that is a bad thing when there appears to be corruption within the "union" of whatever form that it takes. Sometimes, revolution is the only way towards a greater unity. The US is a product of revolution.

I ask you to consider the suit filed by the TWA pilots against ALPA and the allegations made of racketeering and collusion and who knows what else. As I understand it, the TWA pilots believe that DW and ALPA used them as a bargaining chip in an effort to entice the APA to join ALPA during the course of negotiations as to how the TWA pilots were to be integrated into APA.

Now, I don't care what side of the fence you're on on this or the RJDC issue. The fact remains that ALPA is under heavy fire for the manner in which it has (mis?)-represented two or more groups with the result being at least two major lawsuits being fired against it.

At the same time, the majors are just loving the in-fighting that has resulted from what I perceive to be ALPA's complete mismanagement of these affairs some of which may turn out to be criminal in their orientation.

Perhaps it IS time for the old ALPA to be dismantled (which may happen anyway as a result of its own actions) and a totally new union to be formed for the positive benefit of ALL pilots with the politics put aside.

Many thousands of pilots represented by this union feel betrayed by it in one manner or another. That says quite a lot.

 

[michael707767]

Perhaps it IS time for the old ALPA to be dismantled (which may happen anyway as a result of its own actions) and a totally new union to be formed for the positive benefit of ALL pilots with the politics put aside.

Many thousands of pilots represented by this union feel betrayed by it in one manner or another. That says quite a lot.

I say get rid of ALPA. Let every airline have their own union, then if we want we can form a coalition of those independent unions to deal with national issues.

 

[surplus1]

abenaki

Much of what you say has merit. Yes, I am familiar with the suit filed by some TWA pilots.

You must remember that many suits have been filed against the ALPA throught its history. Because a suit is filed and allegations are made, ALPA is not automatically guilty as charged. That is why we have courts and a legal system. While I do support the RJDC, the same thing applies to that suit. We will not really know who is legally correct until the courts have made their final decision and that will most likely require several appeals.

Meanwhile the civil war of which I spoke is brewing and people are choosing sides. Nevertheless, I am not yet ready to throw in the towel and declare ALPA a useless entity.

As an example, I disagree with many of the current US President's ideas and politics. The same was true of the previous US President. Neither however, motivated me to cross the border and become a Canadian or a Mexican. Nor do I wish to flee to Europe.

The same applies to ALPA. The institution has great merit and noble purpose. However, it is run by people and, in my opinion, the current stewardship of the organization is misguided to the extent that its very existence is in peril. I would like to see us clean house and restore our union, rather than destroy it completely in a pitch battle.

Had I been alive at the time of our Republic's civil war I would have worked feverishly as I do now, to avoid armed conflict and the carnage that resulted from it. Yes sometimes it is necessary, but only because men are fools. I believe we always have choices, sometimes we just make the wrong ones.

If we do not learn from the mistakes of history, we will in fact be doomed to repeating them. I advocate that we learn and now, before it is too late. There is still time.

 

[abenaki]

Surplus,

Exceptionally well written and valid points......good stuff. I will add that while our justice system works better than most, it is also subject to the influences of those same flawed human beings.....justice is not always served by the courts and the guys in the white hats don't always win.....sometimes its the ones with the biggest checkbooks who prevail versus those in the right. However, your points are well taken. While I would hesitantly agree with not dismanlting ALPA yet, ther is no doubt in my mind that portions of it need to be cleaned out forthwith.

Perhaps I knew you at when I was at Comair.....I do hope that things have improved significantly for you all as I hear is (mostly) the case. I can't think of a group of pilots, flight attendants and employees in general who didn't deserve some radical changes.

My best wishes to you all all at CMR.....

 

[surplus1]

abenaki

Thanks. Your points are well made too and there is little if anything with which I disagree.

We do have a "legal" system rather than a justice system and it is true that money makes a lot of difference (too much) in the outcome of many cases. However, if one is able to spend the money and has the will to fight it is possible to achieve what is legally correct. I think that will happen in some, if not all, of these ALPA cases.

If it will not do so voluntarily, then the organization must be forced legally to modify its behavior and adhere to the law. That will happen or it will cease to exist.

Whether voluntarily or forced ALPA will change or ALPA will be no more (as we know it today).

Fly safe,

 

[rjcap]

surplus,

Whether voluntarily or forced ALPA will change or ALPA will be no more (as we know it today).

ALPA has completely missed the required leadership role with the introduction of the RJ.

ALPA is completely helpless with the current mass restructuring of the major airlines.

ALPA is presently a political organization collecting dues (taxes) and facing costly litigation with enormous financial penalties.

ALPA is soon to be gone.

 

[surplus1]

surplus,
ALPA is soon to be gone.

Any ideas as to what might take its place?