ALPA "Express?"

[Tim47SIP]

Future plans?

I cant help but wonder if this is not just a starting point for a plan of action by ALPA to establish a definite line between regional and mainline structures. With J4J's in place at U and DALPA in negotiations concerning their revised scope and furloughs, the term "Operational Integration" is the only thing really keeping ALPA from pushing the jets to mainline. That term will have to be re written to keep ALPA from having to adhear to there own by laws. With these regional jets starting to become a reality with mainline, ALPA has to come up with something to keep the slime out of the mainline rank and file. Even before this "Express" newsletter came out, there were several threads that discussed this very issue and most of them came to the same conclusion, that "operational Integration" would be a great hinderence in ALPA's overall plan.


In response to FDJ's accusers, I have never read anything that he has posted that was derogitory towards any regional pilot. As a matter of fact, he is one of the few mainline guys here that treat all of us with the greatest of respect. Ya, he has a different view than some of us, but that is what this board is for. I look forward to reading more of his posts.

 

[csmith]

Re: Future plans?

In response to FDJ's accusers, I have never read anything that he has posted that was derogitory towards any regional pilot. As a matter of fact, he is one of the few mainline guys here that treat all of us with the greatest of respect. Ya, he has a different view than some of us, but that is what this board is for. I look forward to reading more of his posts.

Yeah, Tim, I have the corner on that market, despite all evidence to the contrary. This thread, like all others, has led to the "have nots" feling sorry for themselves and having the solution to all of the "problems". Those pesky mainliners just think they can outfly, outwit, and outknow everyone. I recognized this trend after a few posts back and bowed out of the discussion. I was too busy letting sound logic get in the way of emotion.

Have fun guys.

C

 

[Typhoon1244]

Originally posted by FlyDeltasJets
You don't like the name of your newsletter. Throw it out. Fine. But give me a rational discussion, using researched facts, about how ALPA has wronged you and I will, and have, respond with an intelligent conversation.

Go back and read what I said. The magazine is not what really upsets me. (By the way, most of the newsletter was devoted to explaining the name of the newsletter. Really informative, huh?)

I'm a little disappointed that you're the only guy on this thread so far who didn't get my point. I'll say it again: ALPA has no business creating an artificial hierarchy within its membership. They can't argue that groups like the RJDC don't have a case, and then turn around and start slapping labels on "little airplane" pilots in an effort to segregate them from everybody else.

All of us, from the new-hire Beech 1900 F/O to the thirty-five year 747 captain, are airline pilots. Any label beyond that is unnecessary and divisive. If Duane and friends thought they were going to make the "express" guys feel included by taking this step, they were badly mistaken.

And for what it's worth, "Widget" is a pretty stupid name.

 

[surplus1]

FDJ

The Widget is not at all like this new "Express" publication and you of all people should know that. The Widget is an internal publication of the Delta MEC for Delta pilots (paid for by the DMEC) just like UpFront is an internal publication of the CMR MEC for Comair pilots (paid for by the CMRMEC). Neither one has anything to do with the "National" union.

The content of "Express" is also interesting. The opening "Rolling Out" article by Duane Woerth is atypical of ALPA's "separate but equal" (like separate and equal Southern schools of old)philosophy and reminiscent of another ALPA "newsletter" called Heads Up, published back in '99 to point out the "overspending" of regional MECs and teach us the realities of the BIG 10. Both help to emphasize and cement divisive differences between major/regional and do nothing to improve unity.

Additionally, the "In the News" section of the new "Espress" contains heavy doses of political spin re the recent litigation with CCAir Pilots and the ongoing RJDC litigation. The heavy spin in the latter is not even factual and is deliberately slanted against the RJDC president as though he were the "sole" litigant. Propaganda or I should say, shameless propaganda.

The Collective Bargaining section is a rehash of something that has been ongoing internally for many years, now being touted as "new". That's bogus; there is nothing new about it. Its references to the BSIC pharse are particularly amusing to those in the know and decidedly misleading to everyone else.

This publication does nothing other than make it even more clear that the ALPA maintains and wishes to continue to maintain an apartheid system that segregates its members into different groups.

I wonder why it hasn't occured to the communications folks at ALPA to create a special "Night Flyer" for the "freighter dogs" whose activities and interests are certainly more "different" than those of the passenger carrying pilots in the majors/regionals. Maybe we could call them (affectionately of course) the blue collar group as differentiated from the executives of the mainline, and the white collar labor at the regionals. Think FDX and DHL pilots would like that?

I've always been fascinated by the fact that those folks on the top of all segregated structures never seem to be able to comprehend the evils of segregation. Could it be because "they" are not its victims?

 

[surplus1]

Re: Future plans?

I cant help but wonder if this is not just a starting point for a plan of action by ALPA to establish a definite line between regional and mainline structures.

A starting point, Tim? The "line" was drawn by those who run the ALPA a long time ago. They don't need to start it, its already in place. They're just trying to maintain it.

..... the term "Operational Integration" is the only thing really keeping ALPA from pushing the jets to mainline. That term will have to be re written to keep ALPA from having to adhear to there own by laws.

Not picking on you (I mostly agree) but need to point out that the term "operational integration" is not a problem for ALPA. That is precisely why it was deliberately not defined when first inserted into ALPA's merger policy and why all attempts to define it since (at the last BOD for instance) were rejected by the powerful. It is a term as clear to ALPA as the definition of "IS" was to President Clinton.

Have no fear my friend, if and when anything in ALPA's "rules" becomes a hinderance to the big palyers, they will simply changes the rules to ensure that they win the game. That has always worked before and will be repeated. Matter of fact that's exactly how "operational integration" and "discretion of" got into the merger policy in the first place. It is also why the definition of Alter Ego was deleted.

Regards,

PS. RE your remarks about FDJ and his posts: He and I often disagree. In fact more than often, nearly always. However, I agree with what you said. He presents his views and does not attack others personally or disrespect anyone. That is why he is credible and I too look forward to his posts.

He is seldom right, but he is always nice about being wrong. (That's supposed to be funny, FDJ).

 

[jppt2000]

Shame on me? Kiss my a$$.


Yes, shame on you.
Funny how you used dollar signs

"have nots" ,
Well there you have it, you proved my point you wrote it!


Mainline: Haves

Regional: "have nots"



I'll bet you think you are among the best and brightest,
and you just can't imagine why the Regional folks think there is a
"caste" system.

 

[Majik]

Here's the deal I never understood about ALPA. How can 1 union simultaneously represent the best interests of both Mainline and Regional pilots. From my perspective, it seems that they follow the $$ (Mainline), but don't want to turn down the dues of the Regionals. Some issues seem to conflict between Mainline interests vs Regionals.

If I were to get a divorce, I wouldn't hire the same lawyer that represents my wife. That would be a conflict of interest.
In the case of ALPA, where does their interest lie???

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Shame on me? Kiss my a$$.


Yes, shame on you.
Funny how you used dollar signs

"have nots" ,
Well there you have it, you proved my point you wrote it!


Mainline: Haves

Regional: "have nots"




----------Uh, what the hell are you talking about?



I'll bet you think you are among the best and brightest,

You better believe I do!

 

[Typhoon1244]

People like you (and your numbers are growing) have a huge victim complex. It's getting awfully tiresome.

By "people like you" (or as Ross Perot put it, "you people"), do you mean "express pilots?" I see the ALPA segregation plan is already working!

FDJ, I've come to respect the h_ll out of you after seeing your comments on the Eastern thread. You are probably one of many Delta pilots that have a realistic, level-headed view of the mainline/regional situation. Please understand, however, that I've spoken to many of your coworkers who have told me straight out that they wish my job would just vanish along with the airplanes. I got the "jumpseat inquisition" so many times, I can't bear to even ask for a Delta jumpseat anymore.

One Delta pilot told me: "We should never have allowed you guys to have jets." My, what a regal attitude that is! There may even be a shred of truth to this idea. The fact is, though, thanks to the CRJ, I'm living a pretty good life in the post-9/11 world...and to think that this as_hole would wish it away from me...it's pretty hard to swallow.

Another said: "You want to fly a seventy-seat jet? Come apply at Delta. We'll have lots!" That's the only guy I hope is on furlough. I'd love to tell him, "you want to flow onto my seniority list? Fill out an application. You can 'flow' right onto the bottom."

ALPA is not out to get you.

My point is that many of us are being led to believe by behavior like this that ALPA's mainline pilots are out to get us, and the management teams are loving it! If management can divide us and keep us at each other's throats, it will tear ALPA apart. It's not dissimilar from what you and I--or more precisely, our fathers--saw at Eastern.

This kind of segregation (Major vs. "Express") is union-busting in its most basic form...and I am horrified to see ALPA doing their part to accelerate the process! All of us, all airline pilots are going to have to come to some kind of understanding or ALPA as we know it will disintegrate. We have to stop seeing each other as a threat.

(Perhaps if someday Delta goes on strike and ASA/Comair honor the picket line, or vice versa...that might do the trick! That might demonstrate our willingness to work together. I hope we don't reach that point, though...)

 

[enigma]

outside looking in

As I've written before, I'm on the outside of this issue. However, I can't believe the lack of insight that ALPA has shown with this issue. As we speak, ALPA is being sued because some members, who happen to fly RJ's at wholy-owned regionals, think that ALPA has failed to provide them equal representation. (please don't bother refining/correcting that point, it's not the real point and I'm not saying that ALPA did or didn't)

You would think that ALPA would be doing everything possible to treat all members equally, or at least be trying to give that perception. Now they come out with a newsletter that just reinforces the perception that ALPA considers the regionals on a different level than the majors. Even if ALPA is totally evenhanded, this gives the perception that the they are not. And it is generally recognized that perception is stronger than reality.

What are they thinking?

On a personal level, I'd da*n sure be PO'd if ALPA decided that I needed a seperate newsletter just because I work for a lowfare carrier, especially if I already thought that ALPA looked down upon me.

regards,
8N

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: outside looking in

You would think that ALPA would be doing everything possible to treat all members equally, or at least be trying to give that perception. Now they come out with a newsletter that just reinforces the perception that ALPA considers the regionals on a different level than the majors. Even if ALPA is totally evenhanded, this gives the perception that the they are not. What are they thinking?

Very well said. For an "outsider," you picked up on this issue pretty quickly.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

By "people like you" (or as Ross Perot put it, "you people"), do you mean "express pilots?" I see the ALPA segregation plan is already working!



-----I'm sorry that you misunderstood me, Ty. I would never use "people like you" to describe a group of pilots. I used it against one person who had attempted to paint my group with a broad brush (the same thing we have been accused of doing). This poster seemed to be part of a growing group of people who want to play the victim. The "people like you" described those who exhibit those traits, not those who fly a particular kind of airplane. I'm sorry if you got the wrong idea. I look at rj pilots as fellow aviators, some good, some bad. Just like I look like pilots of any airline or airplane. I have tried to convey that feeling in my posts, even during disagreements.



FDJ, I've come to respect the h_ll out of you after seeing your comments on the Eastern thread. You are probably one of many Delta pilots that have a realistic, level-headed view of the mainline/regional situation. Please understand, however, that I've spoken to many of your coworkers who have told me straight out that they wish my job would just vanish along with the airplanes. I got the "jumpseat inquisition" so many times, I can't bear to even ask for a Delta jumpseat anymore.



----You also have my respect (and thanks for the compliment). I apologize for those members of my group who act like jerks. Believe me, however, I have found them on both sides of the fence!



One Delta pilot told me: "We should never have allowed you guys to have jets."


-----Actually, I agree with him 100%. In fact, we should never have allowed ANY codesharing. Perhaps if we had exhibited more foresight, we would all be a part of the same list right now. Please don't take offense, because none is intended.


My, what a regal attitude that is! There may even be a shred of truth to this idea. The fact is, though, thanks to the CRJ, I'm living a pretty good life in the post-9/11 world...and to think that this as_hole would wish it away from me...it's pretty hard to swallow.


If he wished it away from you, than he is an "A-hole." If, however, he wished we had done things differently in the past that would have made us all part of the same high paying airline, than I cannot fault him. I wasn't there, so I don't know his tone or intent.


Another said: "You want to fly a seventy-seat jet? Come apply at Delta. We'll have lots!" That's the only guy I hope is on furlough. I'd love to tell him, "you want to flow onto my seniority list? Fill out an application. You can 'flow' right onto the bottom."

---------Again, A-holes everywhere! You'll never believe some guys I have run into from your side! Some of them are even suing to bankrupt our union and eliminate our scope clause! My point is, there are jerks everywhere. They will always be jerks, regardless of what uniform they wear.


My point is that many of us are being led to believe by behavior like this that ALPA's mainline pilots are out to get us, and the management teams are loving it! If management can divide us and keep us at each other's throats, it will tear ALPA apart. It's not dissimilar from what you and I--or more precisely, our fathers--saw at Eastern.


-----------The perception that you are out to get us is also prevelent. Neither is correct, although the fact that your airline is rapidly growing while ours is shrinking should lead one to conclude that if we were out to get you, we suck at it!


This kind of segregation (Major vs. "Express") is union-busting in its most basic form...and I am horrified to see ALPA doing their part to accelerate the process! All of us, all airline pilots are going to have to come to some kind of understanding or ALPA as we know it will disintegrate. We have to stop seeing each other as a threat.


If you interpret a newsletter as "union busting" than we'll just have to disagree. You have spent a lengthy post articulating some of the problems and differences between mainline and regional pilots. Then you tell me that there is no difference between the two. While that may be true as far as piloting skills go, you have demonstrated that it is not true as far as attitudes or agendas are concerned. I would hope that the newsletter will at least discuss some of your concerns (which are signifigant enough to prompt some of your coworkers to file a lawsuit). I am not saying that is all that should be done, but I would prefer to argue substance and policy rather than a few sheets of paper.



(Perhaps if someday Delta goes on strike and ASA/Comair honor the picket line, or vice versa...that might do the trick! That might demonstrate our willingness to work together. I hope we don't reach that point, though...)

Well, we have already honored CMR's (as well as set up their strike center, contribute to their funds, walk the picket lines, etc). I believe that most of you would do the same for us (although your MEC refused to sign our struck work policy when we were negotiating). I guess what I am trying to say in my usual convoluted way is that I agree with you! I would love to see us work together.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Tim and Surplus,

Thanks for the compliments. I appreciate them, as I do try to be cordial. It was nice of you guys to notice and mention it.

Surplus,
Thank you for at least finding fault with the articles in the newsletter. That argument at least has some substance. The fact that you get an extra newsletter (in addition to our usual mailings) did not seem cause enough to complain. If the content is incorrect, however, that seems a more worthwhile complaint.

 

[abenaki]

Typhoon,
Do you really believe that the DAL pilots have the fortitude to go on strike? Or honor an ASA or Comair picket line? They sure were a LOT of help to the Comair pilots during the strike in '01, weren't they? Yea, right......

 

[MetroSheriff]

Typhoon,
Do you really believe that the DAL pilots have the fortitude to go on strike? Or honor an ASA or Comair picket line? They sure were a LOT of help to the Comair pilots during the strike in '01, weren't they? Yea, right......

Flame Bait...