ALPA asleep at the wheel.

[macdaddy]

Last month's ALPA magazine has Woerth talking about how great the state of the union is!!

We've got managment whipsawing wholly owned regionals one against the other (i.e. Comair v. ASA v. Skywest), whipsawing mainline against the regionals (i.e. Delta v. ASA). Delta won a big grievance against their pilot group.

When was the last time ALPA won anything??

Management has won the RJ war. I'm old enough to remember Lorenzo and the 'B' scale battle. ALPA rallied all the pilot groups and beat airline management. In a large part this was responsible for the good career that piloting came to be. RJ's are 'C' scales. Low pay and total compensation. You can't raise a family on RJ pay.

The job pool of decent paying jobs is shrinking. Wake up Woerth!!

(BTW - I'm an Eagle furloughee and son of retired 'major' pilot.)

 

[rjcap]

Mac,

Clarify for me the "B" scale battle. My recollection is that Crandall of AA put forth the B scale and won. He sold the pilots off on the notion that B scale would only affect new hires but of course the exisiting pilots would maintain A scale wages.

I don't believe ALPA or pilots won anything here.

 

[macdaddy]

Lorenzo started the idea at CAL. Delta tried to institute it also. New hires at the majors would be paid 'B' scale for a period of time - I think it was 5 years or so. The 'B' scale was substantially less 40 to 50% less than 'A' scale pilots were paid.

I was young at the time, but I remember my Father having strike meetings at our house. The Delta pilots were ready to strike over the issue, but Delta backed down. They did not have the "not my problem" attitude that pilots at the majors have now. They were willing to do it for the good of the profession as a whole.

 

[trainerjet]

This has been discussed before on this board..but the "B" scale was an invention of Bob Crandall at AA in the early 80's as a way to expand the airline. He sold it to the pilots as a way the airline could hire and expand and pay the new hires something less than what the guys there were making. "Parity" was achieved at something like 7 yrs. Many airlines followed suit..I suppose they felt they had to in order to compete at the time. Eventually, the B scalers grew in numbers and the airlines began to make profits again, and the B scale went away.

While Lorenzo was one of the worst things to ever happen to labor in this industry, he was not the root of ALL the evil. The "B" scale was started by Crandall and AA.

 

[Boeingman]

I thought Piedmont actually started the B scale and Crandall followed with guns blazing.

DAL still has a B scale with their DALExpress operation.

 

[Tim47SIP]

They are not asleep! They are in denial! The problem they are having right now is that while their manipulative tacticts are designed to mold the industry into a pattern of their own needs (or greed), the industry is doing something else. I'm not sure if they really know what to do at this point other than stick their heads in the sand and hope it all goes away. That might be a good thing as the change may be over when they finally wake up.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Or, you could do something about it. Join the RJDC, who are fighting for your rights at this very moment. They are a grass roots organization who is suing ALPA for not treating the "regional" pilots the same way they treat their other members. We are not junior members, we are members. They are just line pilots, who are fighting this fight, for YOU! Send in what you can, just a few bucks a month will help, if enough people join in.

Good luck to all. Go to rjdefense.com for more details.

 

[trainerjet]

You're starting to sound a bit like those televangelists.....SEND ME YOUR MONEY....I'LL CURE WHAT AILS 'YA. THEN YOU'LL HAVE YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THE PROMISED LAND.

The only problem is it's those televangelists that benefit. And the only ones that will really benefit if you send your money to the RJDC are the attorneys that are "fighting" the fight.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Really? How do you know? The same lawyer the rjdc is using is the same one who won a case against ALPA for some former Pan Am pilots who now work for Delta. He's the only lawyer who's ever beaten ALPA. And, he allready has them talking to us, which never happened before.

I think when you make accusations without any proof, like comparing a group of pilots fighting for your rights as televangelists, or all lawyers as evil, you ruin your own credibility. Sometimes when you accuse, you say nothing about the person you are accusing, but speak volumes about yourself. Good day sir.

 

[macdaddy]

I did not start this thread to hear about RJDefense. It is about ALPA letting down ALLpilots by allowing the loss of good jobs to the regionals by not meeting managment head to head on this issue.

 

[filejw]

The only way out is to make sure that if it `s XYZ air on the a/c XYZ pilots fly the trips. No more outsourcsing flying.Be99s to 747 all on one list . Force management to merge, sell or buy out all wholly owned or subcontracted flying.We need to go back to the old way of doing things .Before we got lazy and gave flying away because it was in little a/c.The a/c are not little any more,to bad ALPA didn`t have somebody with imagination in 1988/1990.

 

[surplus1]

filejw

You've identified the cause of the problem. Any ideas on how to effect your solution?

 

[trainerjet]

I think when you make accusations without any proof, like comparing a group of pilots fighting for your rights as televangelists, or all lawyers as evil, you ruin your own credibility. Sometimes when you accuse, you say nothing about the person you are accusing, but speak volumes about yourself. Good day sir.

Sounds alot like what the RJDC has been doing since it's inception. And I used to hear similar comebacks on the 3rd grade playgrounds. One thing you do have correct...good day..to you AND the RJDC.

 

[surplus1]

I did not start this thread to hear about RJDefense. It is about ALPA letting down ALLpilots by allowing the loss of good jobs to the regionals by not meeting managment head to head on this issue.

Perhaps you missed the fact that RJ drivers are pilots too. They just happen to be worried about ALPA letting them down by trying to give the "not so cushy" jobs they have now to the mainline pilots who are trying to take them away.

Who gave you or anyone else the right to determine that your dad's job is (was) a "good" job and my job is not?

If you wake up and think a bit perhaps you'll recognize that we have the SAME job, it just happens to be in a different airplane. We also put our pants on the same way, one leg at a time.

One of the biggest problems we have today in this industry is that too many of us in the cockpit or trying to get into the cockpit worry more about $$$$ than we do about aviation. Greed is not a virtue.

Tell your dad that this gandpa thinks he should give you better advice. ALPA is asleep at the wheel but you're 180 deg. out of phase about why it should wake up. The reason they're sleeping is because, like you, they have myopia.

The world revolves around the Sun, son. It does not revolve around mainline pilots and especially not around Delta pilots. They are just like all the rest of us. Too many of them don't seem to know it.

 

[macdaddy]

There is a great deal of education, training and skill that is required to be a pilot for a 121 carrier. Not to mention the fact that good health is also mandatory. Then you throw in the time away from home, the late nights, early mornings. Fail checkrides and your career is over. It is a tough job. We should be paid for it. $35,000 a year to be a captain of an airliner is ridiculous. That is not greed. You sound like a management pilot.

Surplus1, unless you are independently wealthy, you work for a living. Like I do. I guess you like being underpaid. Don't call me son. I'm 37 yoa and it is very unlikely I'll go back to Eagle. I can make a good living at my other profession.

 

[rjcap]

surplus,

It does not revolve around mainline pilots and especially not around Delta pilots. They are just like all the rest of us. Too many of them don't seem to know it.

I think its beginning to sink in now.

 

[surplus1]

macdaddy

There is a great deal of education, training and skill that is required to be a pilot for a 121 carrier. Not to mention the fact that good health is also mandatory. Then you throw in the time away from home, the late nights, early mornings. Fail checkrides and your career is over. It is a tough job. We should be paid for it. $35,000 a year to be a captain of an airliner is ridiculous. That is not greed. You sound like a management pilot.

Surplus1, unless you are independently wealthy, you work for a living. Like I do. I guess you like being underpaid. Don't call me son. I'm 37 yoa and it is very unlikely I'll go back to Eagle. I can make a good living at my other profession.

The point is basic. The regional pilots that I know, have the same education, the same training and also work for a 121 carrier. They have the same health requirements, the same complexity of equipment, the same checkrides and very similar schedules. It's the same job! The only difference is the length of the fuselage and the paycheck. BTW, they also have the same families to care for.

It is NOT greed because you would like to make more money for what you do than you make now. That's ambition and it is just fine. It IS greed when you already make $150,000 dollars a year (as a copilot) and you want to take away my job beecause you think that YOU can make still more. It is especially GREED when I am doing nothing to keep you from making more. On the contrary, I'm helping to make it possible.

That is exactly what the leaders of ALPA and the mainline pilot groups are trying to do to the regional pilots. Put them out of business based on self-serving and totally erroneous assumptions.

I wish you'd tell me what airliner Eagle pays you $35,000 a year to fly as Captain and with what longevity? At my little regional airline, that is 2nd year FO pay. Are you sure you're not stretching your "poverty" just a bit?

Yes, regional pilots in general should make more money. But when you tell me that you will not go back to Eagle because you make more money in your "other profession", you have proven my point. Your motivation is $$$, not aviation.

Work wherever you want and make as much money as you can, I have no problem with that. But when you let money become the main focus of your life, I see you as a mercenary, not an aviator. I guess that's just a stupid old fashioned idea.

I'm not management and I don't like being underpaid. Guess what? I'm also not a primadonna and I don't like being overpaid either.

I particularly don't like someone that IS overpaid (and yes, I think some are) trying to take the livelihood of someone that is underpaid. That is exactly what the mainline pilots and their union (ALPA/APA) are busily trying to do. They ought to be trying to help the underpaid, not destroy them.

Since you're 37 you should be old enough to have figured that out.

Smell the coffee.

 

[macdaddy]

I couldn't agree with you more about mainline. My point is that management has won the war with ALPA over the regional carriers. They are shifting as much flying as they can. Customers can't tell the difference. When they ride an RJ, its painted like a Delta or American airplane. It is a jet. The ticket costs about the same.

At Eagle, a new Saab captain makes about 30 to 32K. As a first year FO on the Saab I was on track to make a whopping 16K. When the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** screeners make twice what I'm making there's a problem. I smell the coffee and it stinks.

 

[surplus1]

At Eagle, a new Saab captain makes about 30 to 32K. As a first year FO on the Saab I was on track to make a whopping 16K. When the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** screeners make twice what I'm making there's a problem. I smell the coffee and it stinks.

I don't have a copy of the Eagle CBA so I can't look at your pay scales. When you say a new Saab CA makes 30-32 where does that come in terms of his time with the Company? In other words, is that the CA rate in yr 1 or 2? Where does it fall.

No question the FO rate stinks. I wouldn't want to smell that coffee either. That seems like it might be the lowest rate out there today. What is the hourly rate for year 1 at Eagle?

I'm really curious.

If those are your pay rates, then somebody hasn't been doing a very good job at the bargaining table? Who negotiated those rates? Was it ALPA or was it Eagle?

Final questions: In your opinion, should the fact that you have these low rates justify the attempt of the mainline pilots to take away your jets and transfer them to mainline without you?

 

[Slim]

I just want to clarify some things about B scale at AA. I was there, up close and personal, when it happened.

Crandall sold the APA (APFA, too) on the benefits of a B-scale. In addition, he sold the working pilots on a reduced pay scale for returning furloughees (called B+). It fell between A scale and B scale. How's that for defending the profession? Unlike Lorenzo, Crandall did use the concessions to grow AA.

The original B scale had no merge. It was later modified and merged at 17 years. There were other modifications, but I departed the company before that happened.

Fly safe!

 

[publisher]

b scale

B scale was designed to allow the established carriers compete with all the new airlines after deregulation.

Deregulation was the one time that they were at a disadvantage to other carriers without the high labor costs. Crandall thought this up as a palatable way to get his crew cost in line with people like Braniff who were on a tear to take over all the new markets they could.

In the proper setting, ALPA nor management win anything. ALPA has done a great job of promoting ALPA. In the ideal situation, the union and management come up with a proposal that deals fairly with the employees and allows the companies to generate profits for the shareholders, the reason they are in business in the first place. A corporation does not exist to employ.

When the balance of power gets out of whack on either side, things get ugly. ALPA knows exactly where their power base is and has used it effectively to gain wages above what they would have been. Great, but not necessaritly across the board or with even representation of all their members.

 

[bdejong]

Surplus1,
Filejw hasn't just identified the problem, he has a solution. Randy Babbit (sp?) said that out sourcing was a mistake and that alpa should have found a way to keep all the flying in house. The only fix is to spend the bargaining capital to get the flying back in house. At least that's the way I see filejw's post. I'm not telling any one this to insight a riot. The cost of getting the flying back in house is higher than when Randy let the out sourcing happen and alpa may not be willing to spend that much, but that is the fix imho.
Brian De Jong

 

[macdaddy]

Surplus:

Starting pay at Eagle is 19 and change. I think that is similar to most other regionals. Year 2 on the Saab and ATR is virtually the same. The only way to get a decent bump for year 2 is jet FO. That is 27 per.

The 30-32K annual figure is from what upgrading captains told me in class. That is based on pre-9/11 upgrade time of about 3 years for Saab CA. I might be able to give you exact numbers, but it would take some digging around to find it. I think that is pretty accurate.

Yeah, somebody did a real bad job at the bargaining table. It resulted in a sixteen year millstone around the necks of the Eagle pilots. Management does whatever they want when it is time to re-index the pay and then goes to arbitration. The arbitrators are in AMR's backpocket so management can do whatever they want. Arbitration is a joke. I hope no other airline's MEC ever falls for it.

Your final question: No it doesn't justify taking away the jobs. My point when I started this thread is that ALPA has let the genie out of the bottle by allowing the outsourcing of flying - and there is no getting it back in again. Now management is going to keep the wages down by overlapping the regionals' routes. DAL is overlapping Comair, Skywest, ASA and ACA. ASA is not going to have much leverage to raise the bar when they start negotiating this fall because of the overlap. Comair had leverage and they did a great thing by striking. Mullin has cut ASA off at the knees. AMR is trying to do the same thing with Eagle by starting this "American Connection" thing.

That is all I have to say about that.

 

[rjcap]

macdaddy,

I will disagree to a point with you on the overlap in ATL. ASA has sooo many flights in and out of ATL that the Comair flights really don't amount to much. Would it possible for mgmt to ramp up Comair ops in ATl within the next year. Maybe.

CVG was a small hub for Delta. ATL is where the real money is made for D. ASA stopping operations is not an option for the company.

How much leverage does ASA have. It all depends how pissed off people get. If the right chain of events would occur we could go back to the mentality of the George and John days when people would have been happy to put the company out of business. Back then, It was pure unadulterated hatred.

thats my 2 cents worth

 

[TurboS7]

Interesting reading I just want to keep up on it.

 

[MetroSheriff]

macdaddy,

How much leverage does ASA have. It all depends how pissed off people get. If the right chain of events would occur we could go back to the mentality of the George and John days when people would have been happy to put the company out of business.

Putting the company out of business, now there is a great strategy. What do you want to prove? That we can't make our mortgage payments with food stamps and unemployment checks. No one benefits from shutting the place down.

 

[ifly4food]

Putting the company out of business, now there is a great strategy. What do you want to prove? That we can't make our mortgage payments with food stamps and unemployment checks. No one benefits from shutting the place down.

Metro,
Ever heard of a "poker face"?
Right now DAL wants us scared. They want us to think they'll shut us down if we don't take their first offer. Unfortunately, our MEC is of that opinion judging by the POS 700 TA.

We need to show DAL that we're willing to fight and that we'll call their bluff. Try as they might there is NO WAY they can ramp CMR and SKW up fast enough to cover us sufficiently, especially in ATL.
The strategy isn't to put ASA out of business. Our strategy is to put up the good fight and get what we deserve. I'm willing to strike to get that, and I'm not afraid to hit DAL where it counts... in the pocketbook. I'm not going to let DAL intimidate me into not fighting through fear of shutting the company down.

I hope you'll feel that way too when the time comes. We're going to have to stand more united and fight harder than any group has ever.

 

[frank rizzo]

Seems like alpa is only interested in quantity instead off quality thats all they have been doing lately is going and getting other pilot groups lined up instead of addressing issues like flight duty time hell truckers have better regs than pilots. Alpa is just another business alot of people forget they were the ones that started that upas pilot app program for a hundred and fifty bucks you had to submit to get a job after a few years they dumped it because it wasnt profitable.

 

[ifly4food]

It's Rizzo! FRANK RIZZO! Take the wax out of your ears, jackass!!!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist).

 

[rjcap]

Metro,

Putting the company out of business, now there is a great strategy. What do you want to prove? That we can't make our mortgage payments with food stamps and unemployment checks. No one benefits from shutting the place down.

Your missing my point. I don't believe that putting the company out of business is the proper attitude. My point was that a protracted negotiation and strike has serious negative effects for the company as a whole.

These comments were made in context to a question concerning the leverage ASA has in our upcoming negotiations.

One last comment, if you put your financial livelihood in the hands of the airlines you are inviting disaster.