ALPA 401k vote.

[Rez O. Lewshun]

First off...take some ritolin for the A.D.D.
We're not discussing failure of the US Democracy...Eye on the ball Rez.

Eye is on the ball.... if democracy is good for our gov't is it not good for our churches, charities, foundations, NGOs, HOA's and unions?

Isn't that how we make democracy stronger, by extending of the peole, for the people by the people into other areas of our lives? By growing it and making it a normal part of our lives?

Or shall we just give exclusive control to one person to run our unions?

Find out why ALPA failed. What is ALPA's mission? What are the desires of the pilots? Tailor ALPA to the wants and needs of the pilots...not to some lofty and vague goals like "improving the profession." You need tangible and measurable results.

Sounds good.... I agree, but according to your logic, democracy is not needed, so how can member pilots offer their opinion? Get involved. You think one guy should run the show and know what everyone wants..AND make wants realities. How can one person serve different needs of many?

The other reality is, despite the democracy of ALPA and our gov't we don't participate...

Funny thing.. as Americans we love to claim how we are the greatest democracy in the world. We are the most advanced society of freedom and liberty... but the practice is entirely different: one of apathy and indifference...

Management has shown repeatedly that they will do whatever is necessary to beat the pilots into submission. What is ALPA's response? Take the high road.

ALPA is the knife in a Gun Fight.

First off, unions have been given a stacked deck in the USA. Workers rights are secondary. We value corporate profits over fairness and reasonability for workers.

In addition, why do expect ALPA to be something it is not? The power of unions is unity in numbers... but again we run into the apathy and indifference...

It is a vicious cycle.. the chicken or the egg... but who makes individuals participate in democracy?

I got news for you Rez. The RLA? The Democrats won't change a thing to it. As long as that is in place...ALPA has few bargaining chips...

And that is ALPA's fault...? Did ALPA craft the RLA? Face it, in America we are all about individualism, greed and fear. The RLA simply supports what we really value in America.

These are not traits of effective unionism....

You want change? Maybe you need to break the rules.

PATCO tried it.... it backfired and ruined it for all of us....

There are places for 'civil disobedience'..... and certain ALPA MEC's are doing just that... but no union has proven successfull in breaking the rules.



Your problem, as it has always been, and will be, unless you actively choose otherwise, and this goes for too many Americans...

They and you think capitalism is democracy. What that means is... 'I've paid money for a service. I expect 100% satisfaction guaranteed. Why should I have to do anything else. I've given my hard earned dollar for a product or service'. However, there is a difference between dues/tax dollar and market dollar.

Dues and tax dollars doesn't yield a product or service with a 100% guarantee or your money back like going to the shopping mall.

Dues and tax dollars simply means you are a citizen or member and have the right to participate. Only then can real effectiveness begin...

 

[DX Rick]

Your problem, as it has always been, and will be, unless you actively choose otherwise, and this goes for too many Americans......

The problem is that ALPA doesn't even want to fix their self.
Look at our MEC for example. What have they done to save our pilot group? They came up with "No Soap" stickers and the "Knucklehead Award" to oust any of our Chief Pilots.
They're too busy focusing on the little stuff, making it look like they're actually doing something.
It's been weeks, maybe even months since they've sent out a message to the pilot group, updating them with what's going on with the airline.
We get all our info from the company. Nothing from the Union.
Wait, I take that back. They did leave us a message saying they will be in Las Vegas.
They threw out ASAP, cutting their nise off to spite their face.
The fixing of ALPA has to start at the top. The everyday line pilot can't do a dang thing. No matter how many meetings he attends, how many times he calls a rep to complain or adding suggestions in the suggestion box. It goes in one ear and out there other.
The MEC will do as it seems fit. No matter how lame they are. These guys couldn't even manage a McDonalds.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How did the guys at your MEC get there? Self appointed?


It is not like the membership is being asked to come up with complex solutions, volunteer your time, etc...

No, the membership is just being questioned as to why they cannot, will not being educated, informed participants in democracy.... isn't that the American way...


Quite amazing that the alternatives to democracy is far worse... yet those that have democracy find it is too trouble some, too annoying, too time consuming..


Look you paid you dues right... and for it, you want to be served!!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

How did the guys at your MEC get there? Self appointed?

Same way George Bush got into the White House.....twice....They are elected.....

I don't see you supporting George Bush however.....Once again Rez...you don't practice what you preach....

Should you support someone simply because they were elected? Does being elected make you immune from being judged?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Eye is on the ball.... if democracy is good for our gov't is it not good for our churches, charities, foundations, NGOs, HOA's and unions?

Isn't that how we make democracy stronger, by extending of the peole, for the people by the people into other areas of our lives? By growing it and making it a normal part of our lives?

Or shall we just give exclusive control to one person to run our unions?

Eye is NOT on the ball...we talking about ALPA or our government and churches and HOA's?

Sounds good.... I agree, but according to your logic, democracy is not needed, so how can member pilots offer their opinion? Get involved. You think one guy should run the show and know what everyone wants..AND make wants realities. How can one person serve different needs of many?

The other reality is, despite the democracy of ALPA and our gov't we don't participate...

Everything outside the highlighted area is irrelevant and speculation...but back on topic. Why don't people participate? Is ALPA trying to find this out? How can one person serve the different needs of many? I don't see how one can...but people still think that way, don't they? (As evidenced by Obama's election)

Funny thing.. as Americans we love to claim how we are the greatest democracy in the world. We are the most advanced society of freedom and liberty... but the practice is entirely different: one of apathy and indifference...

You speak for yourself and yourself alone...

First off, unions have been given a stacked deck in the USA. Workers rights are secondary. We value corporate profits over fairness and reasonability for workers.

Who's going to effect change? The guys at the top with the money?

In addition, why do expect ALPA to be something it is not? The power of unions is unity in numbers... but again we run into the apathy and indifference...

Maybe that's part of ALPA's problem. Is ALPA refusing to change? Maybe the members are crying for a gun in this fight while the ALPA leadership says "We can't step outside the lines!" (as dictated to us by the guys at the top.)

And that is ALPA's fault...? Did ALPA craft the RLA?...PATCO tried it.... it backfired and ruined it for all of us...

There are places for 'civil disobedience'..... and certain ALPA MEC's are doing just that... but no union has proven successfull in breaking the rules.

When was the last time all ALPA carriers struck simaltaneously? Was it succesful or not? Yeah, PATCO generated alot of fear...that fear is STILL being exploited 30 plus years later to the detriment of the airline pilots. Wanna guess how the next 30 years is going to be?

Your problem, as it has always been, and will be, unless you actively choose otherwise, and this goes for too many Americans...

They and you think capitalism is democracy. What that means is... 'I've paid money for a service. I expect 100% satisfaction guaranteed. Why should I have to do anything else. I've given my hard earned dollar for a product or service'. However, there is a difference between dues/tax dollar and market dollar.

Dues and tax dollars doesn't yield a product or service with a 100% guarantee or your money back like going to the shopping mall.

Dues and tax dollars simply means you are a citizen or member and have the right to participate. Only then can real effectiveness begin...

Your problem is arrogance mixed in with poor generalizations and alot of guessing. I'm just telling you the way it's going to be without change, Rez. You're the one who'll have to live it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You said nothing.... a typical reply.... rhetorical and baseless.....

As usual you expect others to change, not you.

yawn....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Why don't people participate? Is ALPA trying to find this out?

Doesn't seem too rhetorical to me. If you don't know the meaning of rhetorical, you can look it up in the dictionary, you know?

As usual you expect others to change, not you.

More characterizations of a person you've never seen or met before...you're only weakening your position...but keep swinging away.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I just realized you are right..... will you forgive me?



Please?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez....If your the best ALPA has...we're screwed....

Someone calls you on your BS and you resort to cheap personal attacks....You need some new material....

You are exactly what is wrong with ALPA.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

at least open two windows and log on at the same time so it appears you are two different people....

 

[JoeMerchant]

at least open two windows and log on at the same time so it appears you are two different people....

....that's right Rez...everyone who thinks you are an idiot are really just me using different screen names.......

You need help.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

I just realized you are right..... will you forgive me?



Please?

Only if you REALLY mean it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Only if you REALLY mean it.

I do. Make it your signature line....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Sorry Rez. Somebody realizing I'm right? Nothing new with that. Join the club, Cupcake

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sorry it took so long..... forgive and forget?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Back on topic...

First off, unions have been given a stacked deck in the USA. Workers rights are secondary. We value corporate profits over fairness and reasonability for workers.

I don't disagree, but take a look at it this way: You're logic assumes that it comes down to the individual, no? What about the industry as an individual? Will the Airline Pilots obediantly sit down with the other industries when commanded to do so by Executive Powers? Are we waiting for another industry to pick up the flag and lead the charge?

In addition, why do expect ALPA to be something it is not?

I don't EXPECT anything from ALPA. A more poignant question would be: Why do I envision ALPA to be something it isn't. Because Rez, that's how ALPA can become a stronger, progessive Union that can help the pilots. I'm not asking 'why?'...I'm asking 'why not?'

And that is ALPA's fault...?Did ALPA craft the RLA?

I'm asking how much can really change if the RLA (which ALPA will abide by) remains in place?

Face it, in America we are all about individualism, greed and fear.

I agree. But let's be honest, these are human traits, not isolated to American's. It's what kept our ancestors alive. Don't forget, these characteristics also apply to leaders AND CEO's. How does that influence ALPA leadership and consequently, the membership?

PATCO tried it.... it backfired and ruined it for all of us...

Fear is natural. But don't get too focused on yourself, what does management fear?

 

[CopilotDoug]

No thoughts or comments, Rez?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Rez,

I believe in the ALPA concept but I gotta be honest with you I don't like Prater and his cronies. First they went against the will of the membership with age 65 and then they tried to force the 401k issue. Prater needs to be recalled. Until we have a leader who earns the respect and trust of the membership this union is dead. I just finished reading Flying the Line and it saddens me to see what ALPA has become. We gotta turn this ship around and it all starts with the Captain (Prater).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

I believe in the ALPA concept but I gotta be honest with you I don't like Prater and his cronies.

You probably wouldn't like the way he got elected either... the politics of it all....

First they went against the will of the membership with age 65

Only a minority of pilots particapted. Of the minority, a slim majority wanted age 60.

Age 65 was going to happen. ALPA needed to decide if it was going to be an obstructionist or influential.

and then they tried to force the 401k issue.

Force? How? It was quite democratic. A vote was taken and it failed to pass. Where is the force?

Prater needs to be recalled.

Pilots hated DW and pinned their hopes on anybody but DW.

Until we have a leader who earns the respect and trust of the membership this union is dead.

Or members who respect and trust each other.

I just finished reading Flying the Line and it saddens me to see what ALPA has become.

Pilots have always been apathetic in ALPA. Nothing has changed.

Although you'll recall when pilots gave Dave Behnke their resignations letters. Behnke used those letters to negotiate.

Are you and I and the rest of us ready to give our union leaders our resignation letters to improve our lot?

This is what I mean.. we pilots have to give our leaders the ammo and firepower to be effective.

We currently don't. And that is why ALPA is ineffective.

We gotta turn this ship around and it all starts with the Captain (Prater).

Yes, we do but it starts with us.

What happens when the Prater replacement isn't good.

What happens when the guys that run for ALPA President are weak leaders? when the choices are bad and worse?

Yet, if ALL ALPA pilots participated at some level some of the time our effectiveness would dramatically increase.

We cannot pin our hopes onto one person, when all of us are not willing to do even a small amount...

 

[CopilotDoug]

You probably wouldn't like the way he got elected either... the politics of it all...

Hence the option to recall. You can't live up to your word? Then you'll be replaced!

Only a minority of pilots particapted. Of the minority, a slim majority wanted age 60.

Age 65 was going to happen. ALPA needed to decide if it was going to be an obstructionist or influential....

We get the picture...ALPA put democracy on the back burner.

Although you'll recall when pilots gave Dave Behnke their resignations letters. Behnke used those letters to negotiate.

Are you and I and the rest of us ready to give our union leaders our resignation letters to improve our lot?

This is what I mean.. we pilots have to give our leaders the ammo and firepower to be effective.

We currently don't. And that is why ALPA is ineffective.





Yes, we do but it starts with us.

What happens when the Prater replacement isn't good.

What happens when the guys that run for ALPA President are weak leaders? when the choices are bad and worse?

Yet, if ALL ALPA pilots participated at some level some of the time our effectiveness would dramatically increase.

We cannot pin our hopes onto one person, when all of us are not willing to do even a small amount...

And I actually agree with one of your points. Pilots have proven time and again they will not put their career at stake when it comes to concessions.