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ALG PDT Pilots start ALPA DFR Lawsuit

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How about forming your own union? Like a Regional ALPA?

It might work.

Bye bye--General Lee:cool: :rolleyes:
 
[QUOTE
How many people do you have to be sued by before you realize that there is a problem? [/B][/QUOTE]

The problem is that some pilots mistakenly believe that ALPA is a top to bottom union, when in fact the opposite is true.

"Organizationally, ALPA is divided into "pilot groups." Each pilot group consists of all the pilots at a given airline. Pilot groups exercise considerable autonomy in governing their own internal affairs, such as negotiating contracts. Each pilot group is governed by its Master Executive Council, composed of the two or three elected representatives from each of the pilot group's Local Councils (which are located in the airline's major domiciles). The Local Council representatives from all the groups also comprise the Board of Directors, which sets major policies. An Executive Board and Executive Council provide interim guidance between the biennial meetings of the Board of Directors. The four national officers (president, vice president, vice president of administration, vice president of finance) administer these policies from the Association's offices in Washington, D.C., and nearby Herndon, Va."
 
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Re: Re: ALG PDT Pilots start ALPA DFR Lawsuit

FDJ2 said:

How many people do you have to be sued by before you realize that there is a problem?

The problem is that some pilots mistakenly believe that ALPA is a top to bottom union, when in fact the opposite is true.

"Organizationally, ALPA is divided into "pilot groups." Each pilot group consists of all the pilots at a given airline. Pilot groups exercise considerable autonomy in governing their own internal affairs, such as negotiating contracts. Each pilot group is governed by its Master Executive Council, composed of the two or three elected representatives from each of the pilot group's Local Councils (which are located in the airline's major domiciles). The Local Council representatives from all the groups also comprise the Board of Directors, which sets major policies. An Executive Board and Executive Council provide interim guidance between the biennial meetings of the Board of Directors. The four national officers (president, vice president, vice president of administration, vice president of finance) administer these policies from the Association's offices in Washington, D.C., and nearby Herndon, Va."
FDJ2,

This beautiful organizational outline you put together is exactly the reason why lawsuites will continue to grow. ALPA can not effectively represent numerous airlines the way it does. Its like having the same lawyer represent you and your wife in a divorce. The organization needs to change in order for ALPA to be able to do what they "claim" to do.
 
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Re: Re: Re: ALG PDT Pilots start ALPA DFR Lawsuit

BTDII said:
This beautiful organizational outline you put together is exactly the reason why lawsuites will continue to grow. ALPA can not effectively represent numerous airlines the way it does. Its like having the same lawyer represent you and your wife in a divorce. The organization needs to change in order for ALPA to be able to do what they "claim" to do. [/B]

Well actually I didn't put that beautiful organizational outline together, ALPA did. Each MEC governs its own affairs and is given considerable autonomy in its own negotiations.

The analogy that ALPA acts as a single attorney representing both parties in a divorce might sound good to those trying to rally support for the RJDC crowd, but it is a flawed analogy. In a divorce two parties argue over shared property. For example, that is not at all the case with DAL and ASA/CMR. Neither the ASA or CMR pilots have a contract with DAL or any contractual scope over a single hour of DAL flying. On the other hand, the DAL pilots do have a contract with DAL and have had contractual language over all DAL flying since before the acquisition of ASA/CMR.

Having a conflict of interest as a union has never been test for a failure of the duty of fair representation. A unions actions need to be discriminatory, in bad faith or so ourside the bounds of reason as to be irrational in order for a union to breach its duty of fair representation. As an example, given ALPA's stated position that each MEC is given considerable autonomy in governing its own affairs and negotiating its own contract, and the fact that unions are given considerable latitude in interpretting their own constitution and by-laws, the argument that ALPA failed to fairly represent the interests of the ASA/CMR pilots,who have never had a contract with DAL or scope over a single hour of DAL flying, during the DAL MEC's negotiations with DAL, falls flat. Even judge Glasser noted that the RJDC allegations fall short of "Atkins", the precedent setting case he referred to in his recent decision. By the way, the plaintiffs lost in the "Atkins" case as a matter of law.
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: ALG PDT Pilots start ALPA DFR Lawsuit

FDJ2 said:
Well actually I didn't put that beautiful organizational outline together, ALPA did. Each MEC governs its own affairs and is given considerable autonomy in its own negotiations.

The analogy that ALPA acts as a single attorney representing both parties in a divorce might sound good to those trying to rally support for the RJDC crowd, but it is a flawed analogy. In a divorce two parties argue over shared property. For example, that is not at all the case with DAL and ASA/CMR. Neither the ASA or CMR pilots have a contract with DAL or any contractual scope over a single hour of DAL flying. On the other hand, the DAL pilots do have a contract with DAL and have had contractual language over all DAL flying since before the acquisition of ASA/CMR.

Having a conflict of interest as a union has never been test for a failure of the duty of fair representation. A unions actions need to be discriminatory, in bad faith or so ourside the bounds of reason as to be irrational in order for a union to breach its duty of fair representation. As an example, given ALPA's stated position that each MEC is given considerable autonomy in governing its own affairs and negotiating its own contract, and the fact that unions are given considerable latitude in interpretting their own constitution and by-laws, the argument that ALPA failed to fairly represent the interests of the ASA/CMR pilots,who have never had a contract with DAL or scope over a single hour of DAL flying, during the DAL MEC's negotiations with DAL, falls flat. Even judge Glasser noted that the RJDC allegations fall short of "Atkins", the precedent setting case he referred to in his recent decision. By the way, the plaintiffs lost in the "Atkins" case as a matter of law.


FDJ2,

I don't belive this movement by a few Pilots at ALG and PDT is that similar to the situation with the RJDC and I for one will not support anything that gets rid of scope.

With that said I would not be able to debate you on the "Good, Bad, or the Ugly with respect to that situation. I will however say that ALPA has not represented its US Airways Wholly-Owned Pilots the way it should have. You can say the MECs are on their own until your blue in the face, but the final word rests with National. And National has show its colors on who it favors and I think enough is enough.

And by the way, the analogy is not flawed. I'm sure you already know the structure of my company, so don't think I'm talking down to you. It's just easier for me to explain my take on it this way. Here goes.

The US Airways Group "Owns" Four (soon to be five) airlines. US Airways, Allegheny, Piedmont, PSA and soon MidAtlantic. US Airways operates under "said name" and as US Airways Shuttle while Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA operate under the name US Airways Express.

In this situation with all four airlines being paid by the same employer (US Airways Group) and being represented by the same union (ALPA), how in the world is that not a conflict of interest? And how can they possible represent any of those parties fairly and equally. The answer is they can't and its been proven with the destruction of our seniority system in favor of the US Airways Pilots with the invention of Jets4Jobs.

This is not the way I want to be represented.

I do have more I'd like to say on this but can't talk now. So in the next couple of days when I get back to a computer maybe I can explain myself a little better.

Take Care
 
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Doberman said:
Let's face it, Allegheny and Piedmont are taking the full 10" that US Airways has to offer.

Amen to that brother!!! I know that ALG has taken it in the shorts from Airways for years...

Hopefully something good is in the future for all the PDT and ALG folks. Lots of good friends there....
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ALG PDT Pilots start ALPA DFR Lawsuit

BTDII said:
FDJ2,

I don't belive this movement by a few Pilots at ALG and PDT is that similar to the situation with the RJDC and I for one will not support anything that gets rid of scope.
What? The RJDC is not anti scope. the RJDC is pro scope. Delta needs a system scope solution.

The Delta scope has been a horrible failure.

If ALPA would represent all the parties performing Delta flying a much better, stronger, scope could have been realized and the junior Delta guys would not have been furloughed.

The US Air wholly owneds have it worse than ASA and Comair, in large part because the RJDC had a deterrent effect on some of the nastier, jets for jobs, type things that ALPA would have done without the scrutiny of the Court.
 
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