Alaska TA is out. Pay Rates.

[tattoo13]

YES we do currently get an override for flying to the islands

f.o. 3 bucks
cpt 4 bucks

 

[jetflier]

I Alaska going to be part of Delta ?

There have been some rumors flying around and I was curious if anyone has heard this one?

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

I am still on the fence on this one.

On the one hand I am very disappointed at the pay rates at year 4. I feel/was expecting the rates at year 4 to at LEAST equal pre-Kasher.

That being said the rates at year 1 are higher than what I was anticipating. There is a big difference between 16%/1.5/1.5/1.5 (what we got) and 5.5/5.5/5.5/5.5 which is how I was expecting our raises to be structured.

The signing bonus is about half what I would have wanted...

In my opinion one of the big devils burried in the details is the fact that we are cutting out all future new hires from having the A-plan option. 30 years from now who is going to be on property to protect whatever benefit I may choose to take from it. Do you think a bunch of non DB'ers are going to give up any negotiating capital to help preserve our future DB benefits. Maybe that's just one more reason to pick option C...which, by the way, has a DC amount that is WAY to low considering the normal replacement for an A plan is about 15% + or - 1 or 2 and since we already HAD a 3% DC this means I would want to see an 17-19% DC for me to accept a soft freeze on my pension.

As far as the new reserve system...Aside from the obvious benefit of 3 hours of pay and an extra day off I don't think I'm liking this long call short call stuff. I wanted our reserve system fixed not gutted. I like the concept of the current system except I don't want to lose my 'R' days so easy, I want the order of assignments less arbitrary, and I want them to PAY if they take me out of my zone to give me an assignment (even with a 12 hour notice). This TA takes away all my R days and doesn't do anything to address the other two problems I mentioned.

This may seem like I should be a clear "no" from my posts, however the things that put me on the fence are...

1. Timing - the economy sucks and we are the first ones out of the gate. The solution is to either sit here and wait with these REALLY crap wages until a couple of other airlines get better rates and the economy improves, increasing our leverage or take this imperfect TA and wait 5-6 years at better wages that won't seem so much better by the time the 4 years are up. Unfortunately we work under the RLA and in spite of the rumors out there, I do not belive that the NMB will release any pilot group to self help while the economy is in the mess that it is in right now.

2. MEC recommendation - I wasn't at these negotiating sessions and I don't know what the exchanges were to get where we are with this TA...and the people that do know, who's pay is also going to be affected by this TA...are saying yes unanimously and haven't been given any reason to doubt their judgment.

Anyway...I guess you can count me as a definite maybe.

Might wanna check the rates on the SWA TA, and they don't have 800/900's!

Yogi

 

[av8instyle]

I Alaska going to be part of Delta ?

There have been some rumors flying around and I was curious if anyone has heard this one?

Yes, thanks for asking. You came to the right place.

 

[Old School 737]

Might wanna check the rates on the SWA TA, and they don't have 800/900's!

Yogi

Is that what is wrong with our proposed rates?? Those are for the -700. I guess they forgot to publish the -800 and -900 rates. Also while we are at it the -400 holds more people than the -700 so where are those rates going to fall?

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Is that what is wrong with our proposed rates?? Those are for the -700. I guess they forgot to publish the -800 and -900 rates. Also while we are at it the -400 holds more people than the -700 so where are those rates going to fall?

All I am saying is that the 800/900 (and the 400, as per you) both carry more pax=more revenue and deserve higher pay as they do at CAL. Perhaps your scale should be higher than SWA. Not getting into a rates pissing match, just saying you guys at AL deserve more...Don't settle, take it back!!!

Yogi

 

[NWaviator]

Is there anything in there about scope?

 

[Old School 737]

All I am saying is that the 800/900 (and the 400, as per you) both carry more pax=more revenue and deserve higher pay as they do at CAL. Perhaps your scale should be higher than SWA. Not getting into a rates pissing match, just saying you guys at AL deserve more...Don't settle, take it back!!!

Yogi

I was being sarcastic but not to you but the company. I totally agree that we should get SWA pay or more since 90% of our fleet is bigger.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Alaska pilots, this is your T/A and it really isn't any of my business. But as member of the CAL MEC, I posted the following on our CALFORUMS private message board.

FYI my two cents:

I just read the entire TA summary put out by the ALASKA MEC that was posted on another internet pilot forum.

If I vote to approve at T/A as weak as that POS, or don't use our LEC170 Communications Machine (see LEC 170 Go Forward Plan) to try educate our members to shoot down such a pathetic and weak POS TA, please drag me to the nearest field to be stoned to my death by the membership.

CAL management:

Since I know you read this forum. I am not for sale and I can't be bought, I would first take a job cleaning the bathrooms at McDonalds before I would ever lower myself to working for CAL Management. I demand an industry leading contract by all accounts with massive gains in each and every section, to include AA, SWA, FEDEX and UPS.

I personally look forward to “not killing the golden goose, but choking it by the neck until it lays every last egg”, to quote my mentor Rick Dubinsky.

PS. I also look forward to making your lives absolutely miserable in the process. After 22 years at this airline working under the “Friends of Fred” you absolutely deserve nothing less.

FUPM
DARMA

 

[av8instyle]

Alaska pilots, this is your T/A and it really isn't any of my business. But as member of the CAL MEC, I posted the following on our CALFORUMS private message board.

FYI my two cents:

I just read the entire TA summary put out by the ALASKA MEC that was posted on another internet pilot forum.

If I vote to approve at T/A as weak as that POS, or don't use our LEC170 Communications Machine (see LEC 170 Go Forward Plan) to try educate our members to shoot down such a pathetic and weak POS TA, please drag me to the nearest field to be stoned to my death by the membership.

CAL management:

Since I know you read this forum. I am not for sale and I can't be bought, I would first take a job cleaning the bathrooms at McDonalds before I would ever lower myself to working for CAL Management. I demand an industry leading contract by all accounts with massive gains in each and every section, to include AA, SWA, FEDEX and UPS.

I personally look forward to “not killing the golden goose, but choking it by the neck until it lays every last egg”, to quote my mentor Rick Dubinsky.

PS. I also look forward to making your lives absolutely miserable in the process. After 22 years at this airline working under the “Friends of Fred” you absolutely deserve nothing less.

FUPM
DARMA

Well, it's kinda your business since it will have a minor impact in CAL's and other upcoming negotiations. And you're right..it is a POS. But I am afraid it will get voted in because I personally believe most Alaska pilots are afraid of the possibility of a strike and will take the (pathetic) money and run...which will stagnate hiring and upgrades for a couple more years.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Folks,

I would be very careful about going for the one time chump change signing bonus instead of getting some solid pay raises.

Reason 1: With the way the US Government is printing money these days, there are credible analysts suggesting that inflation will be close to double digits in a few years. Will you really be happy with the new pay rates in a couple of years if hyper inflation hits us?

Reason 2: You’re basically locking-in the Kasher pay cuts for the long term. In reality after allowing at least 2-3 years for negotiations, a five year contract is really a seven or eight year contract. Spin the numbers for an eight year contract. It’s ugly. Suddenly management has figured out pilots will accept a 1.5% pay raise. After the initial bump, a 1.5% pay raise is actually a pay cut when figuring in the effects of inflation. With all we’ve been through, do you really think all you’re entitled to is another pay cut a couple of years down the road? In the early part of the decade inflation was running around 3.0% annually. You’re not even beating those historical rates. Like I said, inflation rates are expected to rapidly increase in a couple of years.

Reason 3: Just like buying a car – you never ever take the first deal! There is always more on the table.

Reason 4: You hose the rest of the industry by establishing a new pay rate baseline for the rest of us thus hurting our pattern bargaining ability.

AA767AV8TOR

P.S. I would think pre-Kasher would be the absolute minimum!

 

[airmasn]

There is scope language which is pretty good with Alaska Airlines, but still not good enough with Alaska Air Group. Flying can still be given away under the new section 1 scope language and LOA 09-03. It's not good enough in my opinion.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

There is scope language which is pretty good with Alaska Airlines, but still not good enough with Alaska Air Group. Flying can still be given away under the new section 1 scope language and LOA 09-03. It's not good enough in my opinion.

What, you don't wanna be Big Skyd?

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Folks,

I would be very careful about going for the one time chump change signing bonus instead of getting some solid pay raises.

Reason 1: With the way the US Government is printing money these days, there are credible analysts suggesting that inflation will be close to double digits in a few years. Will you really be happy with the new pay rates in a couple of years if hyper inflation hits us?

Reason 2: You’re basically locking-in the Kasher pay cuts for the long term. In reality after allowing at least 2-3 years for negotiations, a five year contract is really a seven or eight year contract. Spin the numbers for an eight year contract. It’s ugly. Suddenly management has figured out pilots will accept a 1.5% pay raise. After the initial bump, a 1.5% pay raise is actually a pay cut when figuring in the effects of inflation. With all we’ve been through, do you really think all you’re entitled to is another pay cut a couple of years down the road? In the early part of the decade inflation was running around 3.0% annually. You’re not even beating those historical rates. Like I said, inflation rates are expected to rapidly increase in a couple of years.

Reason 3: Just like buying a car – you never ever take the first deal! There is always more on the table.

Reason 4: You hose the rest of the industry by establishing a new pay rate baseline for the rest of us thus hurting our pattern bargaining ability.

AA767AV8TOR

P.S. I would think pre-Kasher would be the absolute minimum!

As militant as you sound, you are ABSOLUTELY correct. No matter how you slice a turd, a turd is turd is turd. Sadly though, as av8 said, we have a bunch of WDs here at Alaska; most are just happy to live and fly in Alaska and the northwest. If this turd passes, you'll see the self serving f**ks flying over the month max and VSAing until they choke on their own greed. The FOs will be parked in their seats until their hair turns grey, the furloughed will be part time help during busy months, and we'll have an extremely pissed off and devided pilot group. I'd like to congratulate the company f**ks for doing such a good job of dividing and conquering this WD pilot group, once again. Fellow Alaska pilots, IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP!!!

When will ALPA ever learn to hire professional negotiators? God knows they take enough money from us.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm somewhat curious what the dissenters were looking for in an agreement. What kind of pay rates were you hoping for? SWA+?

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

I'm somewhat curious what the dissenters were looking for in an agreement. What kind of pay rates were you hoping for? SWA+?

My personal MINIMUM for a 4 year contract:
$30,000 signing bonus
$190/hr for a 12 year captain
$133/hr for a 12 year FO

With 3% per year for the duration of contract, MINIMUM. This is more than reasonable for the company, IMO.

 

[Tatoosh65]

Increased allowable monthly credit through VSA and open time.. If this thing gets voted in, I think we will furlough in the fall. I can't figure out why the MEC didn't restrict VSA while we have guys on the street.. This is a big deal.
Not good.

 

[PCL_128]

My personal MINIMUM for a 4 year contract:
$30,000 signing bonus
$190/hr for a 12 year captain
$133/hr for a 12 year FO

With 3% per year for the duration of contract, MINIMUM. This is more than reasonable for the company, IMO.

I guess I can understand the bigger signing bonus and 3% step adjustments, but do you really think such big pay rate adjustments on DOS are achievable when you're the first legacy carrier to come up for negotiations post-concessions? I agree that you're worth it, but I don't see how it's achievable. Even with the Obama NMB that's about to be put in place, I don't think they'd release you for those demands. We're going to have to pattern bargain to get back up to pre-concessionary levels, and that means the first carrier in the pattern probably isn't going to be able to get all the way there.

Anyway, it's your contract, and I wish you guys luck. I'll be happy to walk a picket line with you if you reject it and end up striking to get an agreement that you're looking for.

 

[check6]

Not to add fuel to the fire. But total executive compensation for the AAG's top 5 Execs was around. . . .by my feeble calculations. . .close to. . . .7 Meeeellion Dollars!!

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

I guess I can understand the bigger signing bonus and 3% step adjustments, but do you really think such big pay rate adjustments on DOS are achievable when you're the first legacy carrier to come up for negotiations post-concessions? I agree that you're worth it, but I don't see how it's achievable. Even with the Obama NMB that's about to be put in place, I don't think they'd release you for those demands. We're going to have to pattern bargain to get back up to pre-concessionary levels, and that means the first carrier in the pattern probably isn't going to be able to get all the way there.

Anyway, it's your contract, and I wish you guys luck. I'll be happy to walk a picket line with you if you reject it and end up striking to get an agreement that you're looking for.

The #1 problem with the current state of industry is YOU, ME, US.... the Pilots. It's not the company, it's not the union, but US. We undervalue ourselves and lower our expectations thereby setting low goals, then tell ourselves "well, maybe next time". It's human nature to search for that comfort zone. If you haven't realized by now, there is no comfort zone in this life. The sooner we realize that life ain't fair and that there is no comfort zone to park ourselves in, the sooner we will succeed in whatever we do.

We aimed low and we got a turd. We need to grow a spine, some big sacks, and take a stance. The choice is yours. Off the soap box now.