Alaska pilots: who would you prefer buy you?

[SWA Bubba]

Let's see...

1) 2 ALPA carriers, merging an SLI with an actual arbitrator making the decision.
or
2) A force fed SLI from a CEO, after expressly consenting to arbitration.

I'm sure the Alaska MEC won't have any trubble picking a side.

Good point, because option 1, exactly how you stated it, worked out soooo well for US Air and America West, didn't it?

Bubba

 

[27 driver]

Good point, because option 1, exactly how you stated it, worked out soooo well for US Air and America West, didn't it?

Bubba

You think option 2 will be better. Just wait until this is all said and done. Most if not all RSW fo's will be stagnant and the ones who grabbed the captain seats will get bounced from base to base as the AAI guys re-upgrade. The only way option one wouldn't be better would be if you guys pulled a US AIR. I'm not predicting how the SLI would have turned out in arbitration but I bet there would be less animosity.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You think option 2 will be better. Just wait until this is all said and done. Most if not all RSW fo's will be stagnant and the ones who grabbed the captain seats will get bounced from base to base as the AAI guys re-upgrade. The only way option one wouldn't be better would be if you guys pulled a US AIR. I'm not predicting how the SLI would have turned out in arbitration but I bet there would be less animosity.

Hey, all -I- said was that option 1, in the USAir/AWA case, turned into the biggest, ugliest, nastiest, worst-for-all-pilots in the entire country, cluster frack. And a bad example for other unions to act in the future. True enough?

Your statement that option 1 would've been better unless "[SWAPA] pulled a USAir" is an opinion, and one not shared by all. For one thing, AirTran ALPA had the exact same potential to "pull a USAir" as anyone else (if it had got that far). Some people (apparently including Gary Kelly) believe that AALPA was the party that was somewhat disingenuous in the negotiations, by stalling and then refusing to send out the first agreement for a vote, in an attempt to purposely run out the negotiation clock, to force an outcome that they thought would yield better results for them. You can't blame SWAPA for that.

Bubba

 

[27 driver]

Hey, all -I- said was that option 1, in the USAir/AWA case, turned into the biggest, ugliest, nastiest, worst-for-all-pilots in the entire country, cluster frack. And a bad example for other unions to act in the future. True enough?

Your statement that option 1 would've been better unless "[SWAPA] pulled a USAir" is an opinion, and one not shared by all. For one thing, AirTran ALPA had the exact same potential to "pull a USAir" as anyone else (if it had got that far). Some people (apparently including Gary Kelly) believe that AALPA was the party that was somewhat disingenuous in the negotiations, by stalling and then refusing to send out the first agreement for a vote, in an attempt to purposely run out the negotiation clock, to force an outcome that they thought would yield better results for them. You can't blame SWAPA for that.

Bubba

Fair enough Bubba. I'm not sure we had the numbers to pull off a US Air trick. As far as AAI ALPA stalling we will have to disagree. The validity of SLI 1 depends upon your frame of reference. We will never agree on the fairness and the outcome of this mess. We will have to get over it and move on. I was simply stating that there will be more pain and animosity on both sides in the future.

 

[General Lee]

Good point, because option 1, exactly how you stated it, worked out soooo well for US Air and America West, didn't it?

Bubba

Bubba,

You don't endorse how the Easties' handled things there, do you? That had never happened before, and likely won't go unpunished. And guess what? They now want to do an arbitrated SLI with AA. Wow! I'd suggest to the APA that they check to see if the USAPA clowns have their fingers crossed behind their backs during any handshake.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[dicko]

Many similarities between USAPA and SWAPA. I think one of the reasons GK backed SWAPA so hard was a fear that they would pull a USAPA if they didn't get their way in Arbitration.

 

[redflyer65]

You think option 2 will be better. Just wait until this is all said and done. Most if not all RSW fo's will be stagnant and the ones who grabbed the captain seats will get bounced from base to base as the AAI guys re-upgrade. The only way option one wouldn't be better would be if you guys pulled a US AIR. I'm not predicting how the SLI would have turned out in arbitration but I bet there would be less animosity.

I've seen this arguement before about the SW FOs getting hosed, be the reality is the agreement just replaced our senior FO's with your CA's (they just changed places). I knew I wouldn't have been above the AAI Captains, so in reality where is the harm?

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

I see this is turning into the usual SWA bashing - move on folks

 

[27 driver]

I've seen this arguement before about the SW FOs getting hosed, be the reality is the agreement just replaced our senior FO's with your CA's (they just changed places). I knew I wouldn't have been above the AAI Captains, so in reality where is the harm?

Never looked at it that way. Sounds better when you say it.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

You don't endorse how the Easties' handled things there, do you? That had never happened before, and likely won't go unpunished. And guess what? They now want to do an arbitrated SLI with AA. Wow! I'd suggest to the APA that they check to see if the USAPA clowns have their fingers crossed behind their backs during any handshake.



Bye Bye---General Lee

No, of course I don't. That was the point of my sarcasm. While I don't spend as much energy as you on the subject (I'm not as big an FI guy as you in general), this is one of the things that you and I are in complete agreement on.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Many similarities between USAPA and SWAPA. I think one of the reasons GK backed SWAPA so hard was a fear that they would pull a USAPA if they didn't get their way in Arbitration.

Really? Other than being an in-house union rather than a local chapter of a national, what does SWAPA have in common with USAPA?

Sorry, Dicko, but this is complete crap, and just the rationalization of a guy on the bitter end of the deal. For one, many SWAPA guys don't think GK "backed us" in the slightest. Trust me, you won't have any trouble finding a lot of Southwest guys just as pissed off and bitter as you over the whole deal. I suspect the real reason GK yanked your money and other good deals from SLI1 to SLI2 was that he was pissed over AALPA's actions in not bringing the first deal to a vote. He wanted a negotiated deal instead of an arbitration, and made that abundantly clear to both sides. Taking your pay raises from you didn't help SWAPA pilots in the least. GK wasn't afraid of SWAPA; he was pissed at ALPA.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Fair enough Bubba. I'm not sure we had the numbers to pull off a US Air trick. As far as AAI ALPA stalling we will have to disagree. The validity of SLI 1 depends upon your frame of reference. We will never agree on the fairness and the outcome of this mess. We will have to get over it and move on. I was simply stating that there will be more pain and animosity on both sides in the future.

I agree that orig Southwest guys and former AirTran guys will never agree on the fairness of any of this (coming from different points of reference, and all), and more importantly, I agree that it's done and that we'll all have to get over it and move on. I have (and perhaps you have as well), but there's still folks on both sides who haven't yet. Just read some of these never ending threads on FI, if you have any doubt of that!

Bubba

 

[Tarquinn]

What on earth are you guys talking about..?

 

[texman]

I've seen this arguement before about the SW FOs getting hosed, be the reality is the agreement just replaced our senior FO's with your CA's (they just changed places). I knew I wouldn't have been above the AAI Captains, so in reality where is the harm?

I disagree. Our Jr FO's got hosed big time on SL10 vs 9. SWAPA had to negotiate. Thats what they did. They shifted 250 + AT pilots on top of the 89-91XXX. Yes you are right. Our SR FO's did get the captain seats. It is sad that the AT/ALPA didn't read the fine print. If I was a SR AT captain I would be pissed too. So in reality SWAPA NC got what they wanted, THEIR upgrade.

This is my hope. Mid 2014 we take on 35 net airplanes. Then know one would lose any captain seats. Then we can be one big happy family and throw a welcome party for Alaska, Hawaiian, or JetBlue.

 

[Full of LUV]

Hey, all -I- said was that option 1, in the USAir/AWA case, turned into the biggest, ugliest, nastiest, worst-for-all-pilots in the entire country, cluster frack. And a bad example for other unions to act in the future. True enough?

Your statement that option 1 would've been better unless "[SWAPA] pulled a USAir" is an opinion, and one not shared by all. For one thing, AirTran ALPA had the exact same potential to "pull a USAir" as anyone else (if it had got that far). Some people (apparently including Gary Kelly) believe that AALPA was the party that was somewhat disingenuous in the negotiations, by stalling and then refusing to send out the first agreement for a vote, in an attempt to purposely run out the negotiation clock, to force an outcome that they thought would yield better results for them. You can't blame SWAPA for that.

Bubba

Bubba,
I don't think the US/AWA merger is the nastiest..... after all they just succeeded in NOT merging an SLI. Essentially it was an indefinite/infinite fence, locked in pathetic pay tables (unable to negotiate a CBA), a play right into mgmt's hands along with a truckload of legal fees on all three sides. The lost years / wages and QOL experienced by both sides is truly shameful with nobody to blame but themselves.
LUV