Airtran-Swa. out of seniority?

[scoreboardII]

So that Southwest can continue to collect baggage fees and take advantage of a B-scale work force for years.

I agree with Freddy, they could outsource the I.T. problem with Int'l Res and have it up and running within a few months and merge the two operations just like NWA and Delta did with FOM training, badge issuance, and then one day, "flipping the switch" and it's done in less than a year (we'd be integrated by now).

Southwest has chosen not to do that, when it IS possible. The only reason NOT to do it that way is money, pure and simple. Our baggage fees and lower-wage employees are a nice way for SWA to increase their cash position while they slowly build up the marketing plan for that international flying under the SWA brand.

If they flipped the switch overnight, there would probably be a dramatic amount of lost revenue while they streamlined the operation to get us up to your block hour average, got all of us trained to where they could mix flight crews (that took a while even at NWA/DAL and with this deal you'd be adding in required training on the Classic), while suddenly losing that money from baggage fees as well as losing initial bookings while the public figures out that it's Southwest now selling those international tickets.

Dude, really? All that goes away Jan 1 2015 just like everyone voted for, this is really old news.

 

[scoreboardII]

Actually they do have a say. Look at other majors and what happened to them after they merged. AirTran folks are the ones who should say "f u and the horse you rode in". Scoreboard does a great job of acting the sore loser.

I'm not the sore loser in this passion play, I'm doing fine. My heads held high, if your sorry for how it turned out, then so be it, but don't try to cast the blame for this ******************** pile on the pilots, AT or SWA.

 

[scoreboardII]

You'd better hope not.

If SWA ever buys another airline that's not bankrupt and that airline puts up a fight, we're screwed.

Staple us to the bottom, then JUST when we're getting back to where we were in relative seniority (8-10 YEARS from now), they buy another airline that gets a FAIR integration and voila, our pilots would be frozen at their seniority for the rest of their career, and in many cases become career F/O's.

Money is all fine and good, but part of Quality of Life is sitting in the left seat, whether people want to admit it or not. I looked at the SWA list. Less than 3% of their F/O's were bypassing CA upgrade for Quality of Life pre-merger. Most people like the left seat; it's just human nature.

As such, you put another airline acquisition with a FAIR integration per M/B in the mix, you can kiss your CA seat goodbye if you're an F/O now at AAI and if you're a CA less than 50% down our pre-merger AAI CA list, you'll never see the top half of the seniority list unless you're one of our very few CA's under 40.

If it's a bankrupt carrier going out of business and they get stapled? Fine. If not? Game over in terms of upward career progression.

The math is pretty simple, and the risks with a highly-stagnant seniority list here IF there's another merger are pretty high. I just hope the playing field levels for a while in terms of mergers and acquisitions once AA and UAir do whatever it is they're going to do... SWA has at least 3-5 years just to finish assimilating AirTran and figuring out the Caribbean puzzle pieces and where they want to put them. After that, I just pray for organic growth and expansion.

Lear, your 3% number is way off, pre merger it was about 10-15%, but now it's balloned up to 35%. So if getting to the left seat is the be all to end all, why are not those 35% going for it? Quality of life, plane and simple.

Lear, you can't argue both sides, you argue quality of life in almost every post, yet now your saying getting to the left seat is everything?

 

[scoreboardII]

I expect SWA management to protect us just as avidly as they protected the Morris guys - not a single one of us is senior to a single one of them. They've set that as precedent.

Come on Lear, the fact of the matter is the math worked to get the list to protect the OSW (original SWA) pilot so end game everyone one of the effected OSW pilots would time out at retirement within tenths of a percent of where they where on day of acquisition. Yes, some end up better in those 70,000 range, but as the number get into the 80,000's it is what it is, a numbers game. There was no attempt any way shape or form to protect a Morris guy, none. It was all in the math.

 

[scoreboardII]

Oh excuse me, I must be wrong - that you agreed to fly a plane 30% bigger for no pay increase. So when my buddy transitions over how much more will he make on the 800? Anyway that is beside the point.

Why don't you tell me how this went down then flyingGuy? Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan, Delta, Northwest, Continental, United, Usairways, America West and many others all had independent Arbitrators. Why do you think SWA-AAI was so different? I still haven't heard a reasonable explanation that makes sense-other than the one I have given.

Do you really think AAI guys agreed to this without a gun to their collective head? If you want to thank someone for your huge seniority grab and the downgrading of 80% of our captains so you could have our slots please don't look to the AAI guys look to your CEO.

Dude you are not even seeing the forest for the tree's. You answered your own point which is wrong with the truth:

all had independent Arbitrators

and

look to your CEO

This is something the CEO, not swapa, wanted, NO arbitration, he was willing to do what he did to keep it out of arbitration, keep it out of the courts. Unfortunately, he failed, it will all end up there.

The pilots where along for the ride with a gun to our heads as much as yours.

So again, ******************** you.

 

[jball2]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just because and arbitrator makes an award doesn't mean it's fair.

 

[General Lee]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just because and arbitrator makes an award doesn't mean it's fair.

Same with Judge Judy. But the process is fair, with a neutral looking at things without bias. You know that! Come on...



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jball2]

Still doesn't make it fair GL. The process is definitely biased toward the junior (longevity wise) group. Show me one that hasn't been.

 

[Max Powers]

This is something the CEO, not swapa, wanted, NO arbitration, he was willing to do what he did to keep it out of arbitration, keep it out of the courts. Unfortunately, he failed, it will all end up there.

The pilots where along for the ride with a gun to our heads as much as yours.

So again, ******************** you.

NEWS FLASH, NEWS FLASH....SWAPA wanted arbitration.

Is that what you are saying scoreboard LMAO again. Your a fun guy, maybe you should be like the rest of your SWA and keep your mouth shut. In a merger everyone is supposed to give a little - however in this merger only the AAI gave and gave a lot.

It is what it is; but to have SWA folks try and tell me "they got screwed as bad as we did" - Let's just say I would not recommend saying that to our face.

 

[jball2]

Max, what would have made you happy? I don't want to hear, the fair arbitration or "Golden Rule" BS. I want to know where you think you should be on our seniority list and why.

 

[Max Powers]

Max, what would have made you happy? I don't want to hear, the fair arbitration or "Golden Rule" BS. I want to know where you think you should be on our seniority list and why.

I was just about stapled, whilst being 1.5 years away from upgrade - I had 61% above me. I was then slotted in with 4% swa pilots below me. I guess I should be happy with that, sorry I didn't have more seniority for you to steal.

 

[General Lee]

Still doesn't make it fair GL. The process is definitely biased toward the junior (longevity wise) group. Show me one that hasn't been.

If the junior group is bringing in assets and new bases, then how can it ONLY favor them? That doesn't make sense. SWA was gaining SOMETHING from AT, and that means some AT pilots are going to be mixed in with some Corndogs. It had to happen. The day of the staple is OVER. You can't expect AT pilots to just want EVERYTHING you have and then start over seniority wise. You can't. Some liked it just the way it was. Not everyone wants to be a corndog. Arbitrators look at everything brought to the table (all good and bad things), and then makes a decision, without bias. That is what scared the corndogs. You guys never could see what GOOD things were coming to the merger, and didn't give them credit for that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jball2]

GL, your opinion means nothing and you didn't point out what I asked.

Max, you didn't answer the question either.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Whine Lover]

" Just clearing up the misconception that we just said "OK" without trying to do SOMETHING to help mitigate the out-of-seniority transitions." - Lear 70

I never meant to imply that the NC didn't do any and everything in their power to mitigate this foolishness.

The sad part is, that you ( as an NC member , as well as ALL Airtran pilots ) were effectively rendered POWERLESS by the previous actions of your MEC.

For that, and that alone, they should be held accountable....and somehow be penalized/shunned by the Community.

Their collective ignorance and arrogance is beyond comprehension.

WL

 

[Max Powers]

GL, your opinion means nothing and you didn't point out what I asked.

Max, you didn't answer the question either.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

I would've been happy with getting you and scoreboard stapled - and then put me just above you. Now that would've been justice. Does that answer your pointless question? Or perhaps just give me a 10% credit of the seniority I had.

The point is there are not right answers!!! That is why you have an arbitrator who is divorced of any emotion. Get a clue....Goldern rule = arbitrator. Tell yourself a lie enough and you will believe it.

 

[jball2]

Max, I am sorry you feel that way. You still didn't answer my question. What do you think YOU deserved specifically. If you can't say then you need to quit whining.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[General Lee]

GL, your opinion means nothing and you didn't point out what I asked.

Max, you didn't answer the question either.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Look, you Corndogs can't seem to understand what a "NEUTRAL" does. But, that was NEVER your intention, for anything FAIR. You Cornies never saw anything good from your merger, and that is where you FAIL.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Max Powers]

Max, I am sorry you feel that way. You still didn't answer my question. What do you think YOU deserved specifically. If you can't say then you need to quit whining.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

It's not that you don't get it but, that you never will.

 

[Lear70]

Dude, really? All that goes away Jan 1 2015 just like everyone voted for, this is really old news.

Yes, really.

This could have been a combined op in less than a year from SOC and DoCC, just like DAL/NWA. But it's not.

That's over 2 years with over $200M per year saved in terms of lower pay plus continued bag fees. The pilot pay piece alone is $120 Million.

Not angry, just simple math and balance sheet focus rather than AirTran employee focus.

Will answer the rest later when I have my computer in front of me with the snapshot pre-merger list.

 

[labatt]

What do you think YOU deserved specifically.

Merger of equals=DOH
Merger of non-equal=DOH-2.5 years

Done.

SWA+AAI=non-equal