AirTran pilots, who ya voting for?

[Ty Webb]

Looks like another two years with no contract !

GMAFB . . . . the union has asked for a very reasonable contract. If Dave P. could deliver a contract any quicker, it wouldn't be worth ratifying.

Anyone who would vote for a management pilot to be the union president should have his head examined. Where do you think he would be going after his term was up? Right back to management . . . . yeah, that wouldn't be a conflict of interest.

If you don't like what the NPA has been doing, then how about volunteering some of your time to try to make a change? Oh, that's right, it's easier just to bitc# and moan . . . :bawling:

 

[njcapt]

J.F.C. 41% of the pilot group voted for management's choice for Association President. I thought the xmas JA C.F. would have driven more into the Association camp. I can't quite understand what motivates this pilot group.

 

[FIREMAN]

I do volunteer on a NPA committe. Stop beliving everything that comes out of the NPA. Just like the company they spin things too.

 

[Ty Webb]

I do volunteer on a NPA committe. Stop beliving everything that comes out of the NPA. Just like the company they spin things too.

Yeah, I'm on a committee, too, probably the same one as you. . . I certainly don't believe everything that comes out, and I don't agree with many of the decisions that are made, and when that happens, I make my opinions known to Allen and the board.

I thought you were indicating we would have better results had D.P. been elected. If that's not the case, then sorry. If it is the case, then I double everything I said earlier, and I fart in your general direction.


.

 

[Phaedrus]

41%?! Disheartening to say the least. "My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday." (GKC) That seems like the summation of the pro-DP crowd. "Hey, let's change things!" What are the other reasons one might vote for a management pilot? Surely there has to be more.

 

[Ty Webb]

J.F.C. 41% of the pilot group voted for management's choice for Association President. ......I can't quite understand what motivates this pilot group.

Apathy, fear, ignorance, lethargy, selfishness, and stupidity might be a place to start.


.

 

[FIREMAN]

I do not have a problem with what we are asking for, it is the way the NC has gone about it. SH could not get a TA passed in 2001 what makes you think he can this time ? If AP would make HH chairmen and replace SH then I could suport the NC. It seems to me the NPA started all the negitivety when they went to the AJC and blasted the company first.

 

[Ty Webb]

It seems to me the NPA started all the negitivety when they went to the AJC and blasted the company first.

Although the AJC article was a shocker at the time, management has been proving those statements true, little by little.

The Company was offered an extremely fair deal right out of the box, and they got greedy, asking for concessions that weren't warranted, which was proven by the huge bonuses they stuffed in their pockets after we rejected their request.

Then they started the re-interpretations of the contract, and came out with their non-starter of an offer . . . Kolski's comments were even more dunderheaded . . . . . especially in light of the Xmas SNAFU. I'd say the AJC article was factually correct, just not politically correct.

Truth is, there is enough blame to go around, but until this pilot group gets together and starts participating, management is still in the drivers' seat. Don't blame your union, blame your fellow pilots for not being involved.


.

 

[DonVerita]

I'm wondering if the 41% (as opposed to a more reasonable figure of 20% or so) is the result of two things:

1. Guys who are livid that the recent LOA was signed.
2. New-hires who have had plenty of face time with Dave (because he was new-hire basic indoc. instructor) but no face time with Allen to hear him explain things in person.

One thing I would have done differently in the polling would have been to tell guys up front what the SWA pay level is and what ours is. Don't just ask them to pull a target compensation figure out of thin air.

Word to the NPA: Next time, send out polling *documents* instead, along with all supporting data. Then ask the questions. A more educated and well thought out response will follow...at least I hope so.

 

[Lear70]

J.F.C. 41% of the pilot group voted for management's choice for Association President. I thought the xmas JA C.F. would have driven more into the Association camp. I can't quite understand what motivates this pilot group.

That answer isn't difficult, as your lack of understanding stems from an incorrect base premise.

I'll ask you a counter-question:

Why would the JA C.F. as you put it have driven more people TOWARDS the current Association leadership?

Especially when it was the CURRENT Association leadership that signed away our JA rights for this without so much as a poll of the pilot group.

If you originally bid for Christmas off, were able to hold it, then were subsequently forced to work Christmas because YOUR Association sold your JA rights down the river without ANYTHING given for it in return (double pay is an insult), WHY, for the love of God, would you then go running to that SAME Association leadership with open arms?

Wouldn't you take a good, hard look at your alternatives if you had just gotten hosed?

I'm not very surprised at all, except for the somewhat decent voter turnout (near 73%). The JA letter probably drove a lot of guys into DP's camp (I wasn't one of them), but I wouldn't be surprised, if we had access to the real-time vote count, to see a last-minute bump of DP's numbers because of this.

 

[Lear70]

I'm wondering if the 41% (as opposed to a more reasonable figure of 20% or so) is the result of two things:

1. Guys who are livid that the recent LOA was signed.
2. New-hires who have had plenty of face time with Dave (because he was new-hire basic indoc. instructor) but no face time with Allen to hear him explain things in person.

Bingo.

With extra points to option #1 with anyone who was on the fence.

I d*mn near voted for DP since AP (or someone helping work his campaign) couldn't even be bothered to return my email questions regarding negotiating goals in respect to F/O pay, reserve pay, and the JA LOA.

Pissed me off, but I finally chose the devil I know versus the (management) devil I don't, even if he was a GREAT guy in indoc, and went ahead and voted, even though I was pissed.

One thing I would have done differently in the polling would have been to tell guys up front what the SWA pay level is and what ours is. Don't just ask them to pull a target compensation figure out of thin air.

Maybe a lot of guys who have been here more than 3-5 years don't know SWA pay rates, but the rest of us hired in the last year or two more than likely do.

I'd LOVE to see SWA pay rates here... would also love to know that those numbers are what the NC is shooting for, by aiming HIGHER initially, then negotiating down.

 

[-9Capt]

Not exactly a landslide, but I'll take it.

 

[njcapt]

Apathy, fear, ignorance, lethargy, selfishness, and stupidity might be a place to start.

Yeah, but in every similar situation I've been faced with, the cranky, lazy pilot-on-the-street voted for the radical candidate. Stupidity, can't rationalize that.

That answer isn't difficult, as your lack of understanding stems from an incorrect base premise.

I'll ask you a counter-question:

Why would the JA C.F. as you put it have driven more people TOWARDS the current Association leadership?

Especially when it was the CURRENT Association leadership that signed away our JA rights for this without so much as a poll of the pilot group.

I suppose so, but the core event precipitating this debate was the company's incompetent mishandling of the Sap 2 issue. They negligently overlooked a bug (feature) in the system, blamed the pilot group for behaving like individuals with normal self-interest when it blew up, and arbitrarily applied a fix that bypassed the Association - in clear violation of the contract.

I agree that Allen and the Association could have mitigated the problem a lot more judiciously (rolling back the Sap 2 bids to a certain coverage level and compensating the affected pilots) but the blame belongs with the company, not Allen. Would Dave handled the situation any better? I don't know. I'm one of the 'new guys' you talked about who had Dave for indoc, but even if Dave let me borrow his clubs and have a poke at his wife I'd be wary of electing someone so closely aligned with management.

AirTran is my sixth airline and my seventh bargaining unit, and I have never seen pilots so unfocused on their representation. I was hoping that the xmas massacre would help unify the pilots, but I guess that is too much to ask.

Just to stir the pot a little, I managed to get xmas off and am wearing a Santa beard and hat to avoid detection until my show on the 26th. Merry xmas, everyone.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm one of the 'new guys' you talked about who had Dave for indoc, but even if Dave let me borrow his clubs and have a poke at his wife I'd be wary of electing someone so closely aligned with management.

Heh-heh . . . .you're killin' me

Just to stir the pot a little, I managed to get xmas off and am wearing a Santa beard and hat to avoid detection until my show on the 26th. Merry xmas, everyone.

Same here . . . . . . maybe we fly the same trip on 12/26. Use the code word "owl farm".

.

 

[SkiFishFly]

If you originally bid for Christmas off, were able to hold it, then were subsequently forced to work Christmas because YOUR Association sold your JA rights down the river without ANYTHING given for it in return (double pay is an insult), WHY, for the love of God, would you then go running to that SAME Association leadership with open arms?

Wouldn't you take a good, hard look at your alternatives if you had just gotten hosed?

.

What he said...

 

[Lear70]

I suppose so, but the core event precipitating this debate was the company's incompetent mishandling of the Sap 2 issue. They negligently overlooked a bug (feature) in the system, blamed the pilot group for behaving like individuals with normal self-interest when it blew up, and arbitrarily applied a fix that bypassed the Association - in clear violation of the contract.

Oh, I'm not blaming the Association for the origination of the problem,,, not in the slightest. I realize where it started, I just don't like how they dealt with it.

I agree that Allen and the Association could have mitigated the problem a lot more judiciously (rolling back the Sap 2 bids to a certain coverage level and compensating the affected pilots) but the blame belongs with the company, not Allen.

Sorry, I just don't agree. The Association had NO business... ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, NO business giving the company relief on a contractual item that directly affected pilots as substantially as this did without consent of the pilot group.

Yes, I did email AP about it as soon as that initial letter came across saying they had OFFERED the company that solution. I never received a response back.

So far, about 2 people out of 10 on this board said they agreed with the NPA's decision. While hardly a scientific poll, I bet those numbers decline quickly if you're one of the affected to maybe 1 in 10 or even 1 in 20.

Would Dave handled the situation any better? I don't know. I'm one of the 'new guys' you talked about who had Dave for indoc, but even if Dave let me borrow his clubs and have a poke at his wife I'd be wary of electing someone so closely aligned with management.

heh heh... nice visual.

I don't know, but I doubt he'd have done any different.

It's a difficult choice, but I'd rather see the company backed into a corner where they have to offer triple pay or better along with all the other incentives until someone finally scoops up the open trips rather than force people who were able to bid it off on their initial and sap I bids to come in and work after they had made family plans.

It was simply a bad decision by the NPA.

AirTran is my sixth airline and my seventh bargaining unit, and I have never seen pilots so unfocused on their representation. I was hoping that the xmas massacre would help unify the pilots, but I guess that is too much to ask.

Nope... if anything, it probably divided the group into even MORE of a fractured unit. Now not only do we have the senior people vs the junior people vs the CA's vs the FO's, now it includes all of those vs the people who had Christmas off and were forced to work vs the people who didn't work vs the people who support the NPA's decision vs the people who don't.

The higher voter turnout (73% isn't bad as far as elections go) is probably representative of a lot of people getting more involved because of getting hosed for the Christmas debacle just to realize that there aren't any viable alternatives.

Just to stir the pot a little, I managed to get xmas off and am wearing a Santa beard and hat to avoid detection until my show on the 26th. Merry xmas, everyone.

Nice... I'll be looking for you while I'm sitting ready reserve from 1200 - 1800 in the lounge. "LOOK! THERE HE IS! JA HIM! JA HIM!!!" LOL

 

[njcapt]

Sorry, I just don't agree. The Association had NO business... ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, NO business giving the company relief on a contractual item that directly affected pilots as substantially as this did without consent of the pilot group...

...It's a difficult choice, but I'd rather see the company backed into a corner where they have to offer triple pay or better along with all the other incentives until someone finally scoops up the open trips rather than force people who were able to bid it off on their initial and sap I bids to come in and work after they had made family plans.

It was simply a bad decision by the NPA.

I spent a year and a half on the Negotiating Committee at ATA so I'll share my input, welcome or not. There is always room to negotiate, regardless of who pi$$ed in the soup. Given the nature of management at AirTran, there probably would have never been a point where they would have coughed up triple time to incite xmas pick ups that would cover all of the open trips. They would have just JA'd randomly, canceled what they couldn't cover, and initiated a public propaganda campaign that demonized the pilot group. Just like United in the summer of 2000.

Could the Association have negotiated more vigorously? Maybe. It's a lot harder than it appears. The issue of polling the pilot group, given the time available, is absurd. The only way to react to situations such as this is to give the Association leadership the latitude to cut deals. Now, when the controversy is more drawn out, the proletariat should be given the ability to weigh in (ie. membership ratification).

Nice... I'll be looking for you while I'm sitting ready reserve from 1200 - 1800 in the lounge. "LOOK! THERE HE IS! JA HIM! JA HIM!!!" LOL

Unfortunately, I'll have to wait to fly with Ty or get outed by you. I start R1 on the 26th at 1000. I plan on commuting to ATL early that morning, sitting on the couch in the crash pad in my underwear, watching whatever soft porn exists on digital media there, and resting for my green line trips that start on the 27th.

See you on line, guys.

Johan

 

[Lear70]

I spent a year and a half on the Negotiating Committee at ATA so I'll share my input, welcome or not. There is always room to negotiate, regardless of who pi$$ed in the soup.

Oh I agree, I gave a lot of my time to our MEC at PCL as well, mostly in communications, and I understand there's always room to negotiate.

In this case, I would have made it expensive for the company, maybe attached a cease-and-desist letter for the blatant contract violations that have started up in the last year? Tied in a couple big grievances to it?

Along with the double pay, add positive-space commuting deadheads ON DUTY for the JA'd pilots, hotel, etc, not just for the volunteers but for EVERYONE who has to work and was off, along with several BIG givebacks from the company of things they've violated and you have a START.

THAT'S how it's supposed to work. If you're in a position of power and the company hasn't exercised good faith (and has actually screwed with the contract in BAD faith), you take advantage of your opportunities.

Given the nature of management at AirTran, there probably would have never been a point where they would have coughed up triple time to incite xmas pick ups that would cover all of the open trips. They would have just JA'd randomly, canceled what they couldn't cover, and initiated a public propaganda campaign that demonized the pilot group. Just like United in the summer of 2000.

I have seen staffing debacle after staffing debacle with massive cancellations, etc.

Do you think the flying public gives a D*MN about our contract fight? Nope. Do you think they'll stop flying? Here's a hint, United, PCL, CMR, many who had problems staffing and had massive cancellations, even the USAirways baggage debacle, they are still flying with mostly full planes.

The public's memory is short. They want cheap fares. We give them to them. They'll keep flying us. So I really don't care WHAT the company would have come up with. They could deal or not on OUR terms.

Could the Association have negotiated more vigorously? Maybe. It's a lot harder than it appears. The issue of polling the pilot group, given the time available, is absurd. The only way to react to situations such as this is to give the Association leadership the latitude to cut deals. Now, when the controversy is more drawn out, the proletariat should be given the ability to weigh in (ie. membership ratification).
They have that latitude... for now. Wouldn't be surprised to see a MEMRAT push around here after this one. They squandered a HUGE chance.

Unfortunately, I'll have to wait to fly with Ty or get outed by you. I start R1 on the 26th at 1000. I plan on commuting to ATL early that morning, sitting on the couch in the crash pad in my underwear, watching whatever soft porn exists on digital media there, and resting for my green line trips that start on the 27th.

See you on line, guys.

Johan

NOT a good visual. LOL

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

If you don't like what the NPA has been doing, then how about volunteering some of your time to try to make a change? Oh, that's right, it's easier just to bitc# and moan . . . :bawling:

Funny, I've emailed and called and left messages to volunteer on several occasions. Apparantly they actually DON'T need/want any help because no one there had the common courtesy to return a phone call or an email.

 

[Ty Webb]

Funny, I've emailed and called and left messages to volunteer on several occasions. Apparantly they actually DON'T need/want any help because no one there had the common courtesy to return a phone call or an email.

Hmm, not sure why that happened, sounds like your info never got to the specific Committee Leaders, because they are looking for at least 20 more P2P Committee members and probably a dozen more Contract Compliance guys, not to mention soe of the other Committees that I am less familiar with.

Don't let that sour you, sounds like it just fell between the cracks- more proof that we need all the help we can get.

PM me if you are still interested, and I'll put you in touch with them directly. I guarantee they will respond and will take you up on your offer to help the pilot group.

Ty