AirTran Pilots, Informational Picketing!!

[j41driver]

I've never been through this informational picketing thing before. I would think that being on the seniority list and paying dues would be considered "on the list" for picketing. How is this normally handled?

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty-

You got allot on your plate. From this TA, to trying to fit a Guild into your reality to wondering if the status quo is fine or teamsters is the way to go....

Rezfully Yours....

Not to mention running a successful business and raising a couple of kids, while commuting. Hmmmm, wonder why I won't be running for an unpaid BoD slot?

But I AM available for informational picketing.

.

 

[Lear70]

I've never been through this informational picketing thing before. I would think that being on the seniority list and paying dues would be considered "on the list" for picketing. How is this normally handled?

No, this is a volunteer duty, but they haven't officially rolled out an email designed ONLY to get picketing volunteers, although they've been gearing up in that direction.

To get on the list, contact Steve Ujvari, Strategic Preparedness Committee (SPC), @ [email protected]

Thanks to all those who are joining the effort!

 

[PCL_128]

Well, we've seen the benefit of that course, or, at least, Allen's interpretation of it.

Emphasis on "Allen's interpretation of it." Don't blame ALPA's training for AP's mistakes.

 

[j41driver]

No, this is a volunteer duty, but they haven't officially rolled out an email designed ONLY to get picketing volunteers, although they've been gearing up in that direction.

To get on the list, contact Steve Ujvari, Strategic Preparedness Committee (SPC), @ [email protected]

Thanks to all those who are joining the effort!

I've already emailed Steve and am on the list. Has anyone asked MS why he's complaining about "low turnout" for picketing when they haven't even officially asked anyone to do it yet? That makes about as much sense as the TA does.

 

[mnboyev]

They (SPC) chair did ask....he asked the P2P folks a couple months back to drum up support for 'possible' picketing... died on the vine..

ie....no support.. hopefully that's changed....

 

[Lear70]

They (SPC) chair did ask....he asked the P2P folks a couple months back to drum up support for 'possible' picketing... died on the vine..

ie....no support.. hopefully that's changed....

Yes, they did email the P2P guys. Which is completely ineffective.

The P2P pilots are not supposed to go out and drum up support, that's the responsibility of the elected leadership. This isn't the military. The general doesn't pass on directives to the Captains, then the Captains the Sergeants, then the Sergeants make it happen with the "grunts", which is basically how they tried to hand it down.

The P2P group is designed to be a group of pilots who stay close to union activities, stay informed as a general rule, and wear their P2P pins so that other pilots can identify them in the crew room and on the line to answer questions. They're also designed to provide feedback to the union on what's happening on the line, what guys are saying, etc.

In short, they're for information, not for action. To rely on them for that kind of activity was either extremely inane or outright ignorant of how P2P's can reasonably be expected to "drum up support".

Picketing is a very personal activity. It requires pilots to rally in support, take their personal time away from families, and march (often publicly and on national news) in protest of (usually) a management activity that threatens them, all in the cause of protecting/furthering their own careers and the careers of their fellow aviators.

You can't ask people to do that 2nd hand; a request like that should come directly from the NPA President and BoD in an email intended SOLELY for that purpose, it should contain a place, date, and time, and the ultimate reason and goal for the activity.

That's what union LEADERSHIP is about. Motivate your group by explaining the reason for the activity, stating your goals, then asking for their help to protect THEIR OWN careers. Make it personal, give them ownership of the cause, then provide a healthy outlet for them to support it.

This isn't rocket science; it's simply different from leadership roles that most people have experienced, either in the military or the corporate world where subordinates are required to follow direction. Motivating people who aren't "required" to follow you is an art, not a right of office.

 

[FLB717]

I have not been very vocal on this site for a while now, because I believe that the give and take of discussion even outright rebellion is a protected form of speech. But Lear to say that the P2P program is not to do more than be ears of the BoD is not only off base but is completely counter to the role of their training and use as members. How do I know this, I started the program and did the training for most all of the first classes. Then a very capable and excellent leader took the position over. He was replaced by another dedicated and outstanding Chair. And again you are wrong in that information and activities are not to be handed down, an example of this is why we have things called Committees, in fact you even serve on one now. And how do they get their orders, they don’t make them up all alone do they?
P2P’s are for action both verbally and physically to walk the halls and be present for their fellow Pilots. What was the role they were asked to accomplish? To engage other Pilots and pass along the number and/or email of the SPC chair, to back up the SPC information that was going out in the Eweekly, Quarterly and word of mouth. I can tell you that also, that myself, the SPC chair and another motivated individual called multiple hundreds of our pilot group (nearly all that contact information was accurate for) telling them about the service we needed and why, and if they didn’t answer we left NPA, and personal phone numbers. I received a hand full of calls back to volunteer.
Should an email be sent, yes and I believe many were in the E-Weekly etc. As to picking a place and time I guess you have never picketed before or you would have understood that training is required to preform it properly and legally. And just showing up doesn’t work when you need people on a dedicated list that have been trained said I will be there. Kind of like a RSVP, when you through the party it would be nice to know people will show up.
You are right, motivating people is an art, but I guess I just don’t understand how people are not motivated to save their jobs, guess they are busy doing emails on the web. But I believe mostly they don’t want to put in the time for a position or job that they don’t see immediate compensation for. But thats just my point of view having done the things you tell me are wrong.

 

[AFcitrus]

I have not been very vocal on this site for a while now, because I believe that the give and take of discussion even outright rebellion is a protected form of speech. But Lear to say that the P2P program is not to do more than be ears of the BoD is not only off base but is completely counter to the role of their training and use as members. How do I know this, I started the program and did the training for most all of the first classes. Then a very capable and excellent leader took the position over. He was replaced by another dedicated and outstanding Chair. And again you are wrong in that information and activities are not to be handed down, an example of this is why we have things called Committees, in fact you even serve on one now. And how do they get their orders, they don’t make them up all alone do they?
P2P’s are for action both verbally and physically to walk the halls and be present for their fellow Pilots. What was the role they were asked to accomplish? To engage other Pilots and pass along the number and/or email of the SPC chair, to back up the SPC information that was going out in the Eweekly, Quarterly and word of mouth. I can tell you that also, that myself, the SPC chair and another motivated individual called multiple hundreds of our pilot group (nearly all that contact information was accurate for) telling them about the service we needed and why, and if they didn’t answer we left NPA, and personal phone numbers. I received a hand full of calls back to volunteer.
Should an email be sent, yes and I believe many were in the E-Weekly etc. As to picking a place and time I guess you have never picketed before or you would have understood that training is required to preform it properly and legally. And just showing up doesn’t work when you need people on a dedicated list that have been trained said I will be there. Kind of like a RSVP, when you through the party it would be nice to know people will show up.
You are right, motivating people is an art, but I guess I just don’t understand how people are not motivated to save their jobs, guess they are busy doing emails on the web. But I believe mostly they don’t want to put in the time for a position or job that they don’t see immediate compensation for. But thats just my point of view having done the things you tell me are wrong.

Neither I nor anyone I know have received the calls you speak of. Our contact information is acurate as I have received other correspondence from the NPA.

I'm not saying you didn't call. I'm just saying many people who would have stepped up haven't been contacted specifically about an event.

 

[FLB717]

AFCitrus, calls were made, many many calls. If we had not been flying the 717 for so long our fingers could not have taken the button pushing to dial. I'm sorry that 3 of us couldn't reach all 1500+ pilots, but I guess we had only so many days off, but we did try. We even tried to get volunteers to make calls, the outcome was ...... However we did get enough people to say yes that the backbone is in place.

Well if they or you have not been contact and they or you stepped, up good! I am glad to see it. Thank you to those who have.

And yes Lear70 is a guy who has put his butt where his mouth is (on the line, sorry Ty, could't let you get in that easy) and I respect that very much.

 

[Lear70]

I have not been very vocal on this site for a while now, because I believe that the give and take of discussion even outright rebellion is a protected form of speech. But Lear to say that the P2P program is not to do more than be ears of the BoD is not only off base but is completely counter to the role of their training and use as members.

Training? What training? I never received anything but a single phone call when I joined the program saying if I had any questions, give them a call and they'd leave a pin and lanyard in my v-file.

NO training. Zero. Zilch. Not even via email.

How do I know this, I started the program and did the training for most all of the first classes. Then a very capable and excellent leader took the position over. He was replaced by another dedicated and outstanding Chair. And again you are wrong in that information and activities are not to be handed down, an example of this is why we have things called Committees, in fact you even serve on one now.

No, I don't. There is no "committee", it's an advisory board, I'm not "on" the NC.

P2P’s are for action both verbally and physically to walk the halls and be present for their fellow Pilots. What was the role they were asked to accomplish? To engage other Pilots and pass along the number and/or email of the SPC chair, to back up the SPC information that was going out in the Eweekly, Quarterly and word of mouth.

Again, not a job for the P2P's except to BACK UP the SPC information that SHOULD have been put out by the NPA FIRST. This is Union 101.

I can tell you that also, that myself, the SPC chair and another motivated individual called multiple hundreds of our pilot group (nearly all that contact information was accurate for) telling them about the service we needed and why, and if they didn’t answer we left NPA, and personal phone numbers. I received a hand full of calls back to volunteer.

I never received a phone call. Nor did any of the handful of my classmates I talked to about info picketing. It was handled poorly. Period.

Should an email be sent, yes and I believe many were in the E-Weekly etc. As to picking a place and time I guess you have never picketed before or you would have understood that training is required to preform it properly and legally.

Maybe you should ask before you assume.

Picketed several times, mainly for Mesaba. You don't need hours of "special training", you need a small prep for dress code in your email request then you need a 15 minute "briefing" before it begins on conduct and details. That's it. It's not rocket science.

And just showing up doesn’t work when you need people on a dedicated list that have been trained said I will be there. Kind of like a RSVP, when you through the party it would be nice to know people will show up.

Then put it out as a request. JUST a request, not a weekly update.

This is one of the most important tools we have available to us as pilots against management. I think it bears a little more attention then being burried below the new-hire weekly pizza dinner.

You are right, motivating people is an art, but I guess I just don’t understand how people are not motivated to save their jobs, guess they are busy doing emails on the web. But I believe mostly they don’t want to put in the time for a position or job that they don’t see immediate compensation for. But thats just my point of view having done the things you tell me are wrong.

People are motivated to save their jobs when they feel their jobs are threatened. right now they don't feel threatened. Make them understand, take ownership, then give them a meaningful way to act.

Again, not rocket science.

 

[FLB717]

People are motivated to save their jobs when they feel their jobs are threatened. right now they don't feel threatened. Make them understand, take ownership, then give them a meaningful way to act.

True, and I would hope by now they were paying attention, and if not now when?

If every person didn't get a call, sorry for that. 3 people / 1500 pilots at 3 min a call if no answer is 25 hours of non-stop dialing per volunteer. Again sorry everone didn't get a call. How to enroll has NEVER been a gaurded secret.

But you should have been brought in for a P2P class, you never should have been brought in that way with no training or guidence.

But I still disagree with your easy as pie version of picketing. It may be easy but it needs to be done right, and that means more than just wearing you hat.

Neither one of us can make people do anything they are not determined to do, and when they feel the career is on the line more will happen with in themselves to be engaged.

 

[crosscut]

I have not been very vocal on this site for a while now, because I believe that the give and take of discussion even outright rebellion is a protected form of speech. But Lear to say that the P2P program is not to do more than be ears of the BoD is not only off base but is completely counter to the role of their training and use as members. How do I know this, I started the program and did the training for most all of the first classes. Then a very capable and excellent leader took the position over. He was replaced by another dedicated and outstanding Chair. And again you are wrong in that information and activities are not to be handed down, an example of this is why we have things called Committees, in fact you even serve on one now. And how do they get their orders, they don’t make them up all alone do they?
P2P’s are for action both verbally and physically to walk the halls and be present for their fellow Pilots. What was the role they were asked to accomplish? To engage other Pilots and pass along the number and/or email of the SPC chair, to back up the SPC information that was going out in the Eweekly, Quarterly and word of mouth. I can tell you that also, that myself, the SPC chair and another motivated individual called multiple hundreds of our pilot group (nearly all that contact information was accurate for) telling them about the service we needed and why, and if they didn’t answer we left NPA, and personal phone numbers. I received a hand full of calls back to volunteer.
Should an email be sent, yes and I believe many were in the E-Weekly etc. As to picking a place and time I guess you have never picketed before or you would have understood that training is required to preform it properly and legally. And just showing up doesn’t work when you need people on a dedicated list that have been trained said I will be there. Kind of like a RSVP, when you through the party it would be nice to know people will show up.
You are right, motivating people is an art, but I guess I just don’t understand how people are not motivated to save their jobs, guess they are busy doing emails on the web. But I believe mostly they don’t want to put in the time for a position or job that they don’t see immediate compensation for. But thats just my point of view having done the things you tell me are wrong.

Hey, FLB, you have the nerve to show up here & tell Lear he is in the wrong after you personally voted YES on the TA & then tried to sell it to everyone?! And then you blame the pilot group for lack of determination?! Why don't you tell everybody here why YOU personally voted YES on this TA? Another idea: why don't you tell everybody what you got for selling everyone down the river? Better idea: why don't you resign & let a more capable & "determined" individual step in (please?) Your experience is barely enough to wipe Lear's shoes. You're nothing but a check airman hopeful (Mark these words). So far you have done nothing but brag about your so-called experience with absolutely NO action to back it up. Your experience got you 1% of votes when you ran against an incumbent. Then you ran unopposed & slipped through the crack & everyone is paying for it now. BTW, I'm one of the 1,500 & I didn't get a call either.

With all your experience, FLB, why did you endorse this TA?

 

[FLB717]

I wrote many comments, but most are not fit to respond in public, but I think the next time we crosscut in the hall feel free to ask me these questions in person, make sure you ask me the one about what I got! As far as why this TA went out, because you needed to see it and make your pilots point of view decision and make it heard in the direction YOU choose. And your election information is not so very spot on, check your facts.

 

[PonchoMan]

Shouldn't this be in the LCC's/Nationals board?

 

[Murphy]

As far as why this TA went out, because you needed to see it and make your pilots point of view decision and make it heard in the direction YOU choose.

And 1500+ pilots were denied the right to vote on the TA that you got to vote on. Large foul ball.

 

[Lear70]

Hey, FLB, you have the nerve to show up here & tell Lear he is in the wrong after you personally voted YES on the TA & then tried to sell it to everyone?! And then you blame the pilot group for lack of determination?! Why don't you tell everybody here why YOU personally voted YES on this TA? Another idea: why don't you tell everybody what you got for selling everyone down the river? Better idea: why don't you resign & let a more capable & "determined" individual step in (please?) Your experience is barely enough to wipe Lear's shoes. You're nothing but a check airman hopeful (Mark these words). So far you have done nothing but brag about your so-called experience with absolutely NO action to back it up. Your experience got you 1% of votes when you ran against an incumbent. Then you ran unopposed & slipped through the crack & everyone is paying for it now. BTW, I'm one of the 1,500 & I didn't get a call either.

With all your experience, FLB, why did you endorse this TA?

Guys, let's not tear each other apart, especially guys who recognize things aren't acceptable on the T.A. and who we HOPE would vote NO or put it out with a NO vote to kill it if it comes back unacceptable again.

There's some things that a lot of the current guys there HAVE done, including setting up the basic structure of the NPA to function with a large group of pilots. That HAD to be done, including the work with the P2P program; the fact that it's not what it was is hardly the fault of the guy who no longer works it...?

The question of whether more hard-core leadership is required has already been answered. People currently in those NPA leadership positions need to carefully self-examine their thoughts and motivations and see if they can really serve the pilot group in the fight that's to come if this thing dies.

Believe me, it's going to get VERY ugly around here if this negotiating session is unsuccessful, and everyone better start preparing to step up. Not just the NPA leadership, but every single line pilot.

Thanks to everyone who has already shown their support. Time to head back into the ring...

 

[crosscut]

I wrote many comments, but most are not fit to respond in public, but I think the next time we crosscut in the hall feel free to ask me these questions in person, make sure you ask me the one about what I got! As far as why this TA went out, because you needed to see it and make your pilots point of view decision and make it heard in the direction YOU choose. And your election information is not so very spot on, check your facts.

Bull $hit! Although a very nice but a predictable response. Is that what your mommy told you to tell others? If you really wanted others to see it, you did not have to endorse it ya know. You vote neutral or you vote NO. Either way, the details would have become known. Instead you endorse it & then adamantly try to sell it at road shows. If my facts are not accurate, then why can't you use this thread to explain why YOU voted yes? "not fit for this forum?" Bull $hit! You found this forum adequate enough to criticize Lear…? How are you different? You've already shown us the last card up your sleeve. You want to talk to me on the phone? I'll call you. But let me set the tone for our conversation now: I don’t trust you. We’ll pick it up from here.

 

[crosscut]

Isn't a petition to recall the equivalent of a no-confidence vote? Why fight it then? Resign & recall the NC to save the little pilot group respect you might have. Untill then YOU ARE a management wanna be & if you didn't get anything for your Yea vote, then you're even dumber than I thought.

If my facts are not accurate, then correct me. Start with explaining your TA vote.

 

[newnan]

As far as why this TA went out, because you needed to see it and make your pilots point of view decision and make it heard in the direction YOU choose.

YOU are full of shiite!!!! If that were true, this would have gone to a vote immediately so we could make our points of view known and make it heard the direction we choose, instead, your floundering to cover your collective arses so this doesn't go down too hard. And where does that leave us? In a worse position than if this thing went down immediately. (If you didn't know how bad this was and how bad it would go down when you voted in favor of it, you don't deserve the position you were elected to. Unfortunately, those that voted for you are just now finding that out). Count me in on wanting to know what was offered to vote in favor. We've already got one member of the BOD that jumped ship to the 73 under very questionable circumstances to avoid 71 CA reserve so he wouldn't be hosed by his vote in favor. Was that you?

 

[-9Capt]

I'm not defending anyone here, but let me say this...

I was one of the volunteers making calls trying to sign pilots up for picketing. The overall response was embarrassing. Granted this was months before the TA was released, but that's still a poor excuse.

Until this pilot group decides to get off it's lazy ass, expect nothing to change.

 

[Murphy]

Signed up a few weeks ago and even got an email back from the committee chairman. It was the same day I sent the BoD and NC some inputs on the TA for July mediation session. I heard back from two of the Board members. Some dialogue does take place between the NPA leadership and joe line swine.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I'm not defending anyone here, but let me say this...

I was one of the volunteers making calls trying to sign pilots up for picketing. The overall response was embarrassing. Granted this was months before the TA was released, but that's still a poor excuse.

Until this pilot group decides to get off it's lazy ass, expect nothing to change.

I think some of us were scratching our heads - It sure seemed at that time that talk of informational picketing was jumping the gun a bit.
Now management has got one ticked off pilot group. I just hope they realize it and come to the table.

NO CONCESSIONS!

 

[SkiFishFly]

Signed up a few weeks ago and even got an email back from the committee chairman. It was the same day I sent the BoD and NC some inputs on the TA for July mediation session. I heard back from two of the Board members. Some dialogue does take place between the NPA leadership and joe line swine.

I sent some inputs to Allen and the NC via the email addresses contained in the NPA update emails. I did not even receive acknowledgement of receipt of my inputs - typical.
After giving Allen 2 weeks to respond, I sought out and signed a recall petition.

 

[j41driver]

I was one of the volunteers making calls trying to sign pilots up for picketing. The overall response was embarrassing. Granted this was months before the TA was released, but that's still a poor excuse.

Until this pilot group decides to get off it's lazy ass, expect nothing to change.

In what way was it embarrassing? Did you have guys telling you that they wouldn't picket or did you just not get in touch with a lot of them?

Someone left me a voicemail around the time the phone calls were supposedly going out but whoever it was only left his first name and a phone number to return the call. Don't know if that was you guys but I'd hope you'd leave a more informative voicemail if you expect a return call.

 

[Nindiri]

I may be wrong here, but if AP was recalled and removed, wouldn't this put MS in his place? Maybe you better recall MS first.

 

[crosscut]

Looks like FLB's gone hiding back under his rock, which is what he does best & where he is safe (& silent). Hopefully, he will stay there but, just as hopefully, he will resign (before getting recalled). Oh, and he can't say why he voted in favor cause that would involve revealing what he got for it.

 

[Lear70]

FLB didn't get ANYTHING for voting yes... Seriously... Do you *really* think the company would put themselves in that indefensible legal position?

The following is my OPINION since we did NOT discuss this EVER in any meeting(s).

My money would be that the NC didn't do a good job explaining the T.A. to the BoD when it came out and, likely, avoided explaining ALL the negatives which, combined with the "appearance" of looking like it met the Wilson Polling data plus the mediocre response/support of the pilot group for the info picketing (which really was rolled out poorly) and lack of pilots at BoD meetings, picnic, etc (making it look like they had no support), resulted in a "yes" vote.

As far as what happens if AP is recalled, read your bylaws. It's downloadable under the member section of the NPA website. EVERYONE who works here needs to understand how it works, as it's quite different in some specific areas than the ALPA bylaws.

 

[crosscut]

My money would be that the NC didn't do a good job explaining the T.A. to the BoD when it came out .

That's why the BOD should have immediately replaced the NC. Because they didn't, they have become as worthless and as irrelevant as the NC and, therefore, need to go. Instead we have this genius spouting off about his useless theoretical experience. Aggravating.

P.S. The company's Christmas fubar was also "indefensible," ya know. So, yes, I *really* do think... because the company also knows this useful idiot (+5 others) can be easily manipulated... however "indefensible" the company's next action might be.

P.P.S. Not knowing on what he was voting and/or taking someone's word for it is hardly an excuse. Let's see... "I voted in favor because the NC told me it was a good deal." Are you saying THIS should be defensible?

 

[DonVerita]

Shouldn't this be in the LCC's/Nationals board?

Ummm...AirTran is a MAJOR airline. That's why these posts are here in the Majors section.