AirTran New Mins.

[Johnlp3]

From the AirTran Website:

Minimum Qualifications:

Fixed wing flight time - 2500 hours
Multi-engine, fixed wing flight time - 1000 hours
121 PIC or military equivalent - 500 hours
An ATP certificate, or successful completion of the ATP written exam
Current First Class Medical certificate
Valid passport
Legally eligible for employment in the United States
Free of felony convictions within the most recent 10 years

 

[LJDRVR]

Just Lovely

Anyone in the know able to comment on whether the new requirements apply to those of us in the stack who havn't been called? If they do, then Air Tran is foolishly depriving itself if hoardes of extraordinarily competent, experienced aviators who would help make their flightdecks a safer, more well-rounded work environment. To arbitrarily say that part 135, fractional and corporate pilots aren't up to snuff is shortsighted and discriminatory. Anyone care to intelligently defend this position? I've thought about a possible valid reason and cannot imagine one.

Pick the aviator most likely to be a good line pilot:

CL-65 Captain
G-IV Captain with 5 other type ratings
Fractional or 135 pilot with thousands of hours of jet PIC
T-38 FAIP with a B-1 follow on

Don't know? neither do I, but why would an operation deprive itself of the opportunity to interview and see?
I'll get off my soapbox now, but this really makes me angry. AirTran is one of two places I'd really like to work, and it's frustrating to see this. Se la vie.

 

[Uh Oh...]

Hello

I don't think that AirTran ever said corporate pilots were "not up to snuff," as you put it. I do think that whatever AirTran wants, they can get. Especially in todays environment.

I flew corp/charter for two years before listening to my airline buddies and moving to the commuters where I have flown for four years now. You CAN'T compare the two (same planet, different worlds...).

Anyway, can you convince AirTran (or all the professionals on this site) that you should be their employee without the Part 121 time? In my oponion, I think it all boils down to how bad you want the job. If AirTran said "Go to a commuter and get the Part 121 time..." What would you say? I'm just curious how bad you REALLY want to make AirTran your final career destination.

Fly Safe,

Uh Oh...

 

[flx757]

LJDRVR,

I agree with your comments. I feel anger and disappointment, as well. It is unthinkable that AirTran would be so shortsighted as to not want to draw it's candidates from the entire spectrum and therefore have a broad base of pilots, as other successful companies do. It also makes me wonder if whomever is responsible for this change has AirTran's best interests in mind. As a current AirTran pilot and long time Captain, check airman and pilot evaluator with other companies, I believe this is the absolute wrong descision, and I intend to let my feelings be known to all those at the hiring level.

 

[Swerpipe]

I know what you are thinking

LJDRVR,

I would hire the pilot with the best attitude. I would not be interested in working for a company that would only hire Part 121 or military pilots to the exclusion of Part 135 and others. It is definitely discriminatory and just plain wrong. If they really mean that they would not accept you with Part 135 experience (which I am finding hard to believe), seek employment elsewhere. I guess they have right to do that since it becomes the basis of their pilot culture.

If you took two candidates with engineering degrees, +3000TT +2000 PIC turbine and one of them is an F-18 pilot while the other one is a Part 135 jet/turboprop pilot, I find it hard to see why I would think that the military pilot just by the nature of being a military pilot would be the best choice. I would decide based on the pilot's attitude and personality. To base it on the fact that one is military and the other one is not is silly. But, I am sure that there are people out there that would disagree and that's what makes this World so great!. Bottom line: go to Southwest. You'll be much better there...Trust me.

AirTran will be like that hot chick in High School that wouldn't give you the time of day and now you saw her last week about 200 pounds overweight with 7 screaming kids. [THIS IS A JOKE FELLOWS, RELAX] All kidding aside, one day you'll be sitting on a SWA 737, taxiing behind an AirTran bird and you'll remember how they thought you were not up it.
Best Wishes

 

[LJDRVR]

Long post alert

Dear Uh Oh,

I think your post illuminates the crux of the issue here. All of us bring a certain amount of "bagage" with us; our past expereinces and descisions shape our perspective and opinions. Human nature here, nothing wrong with it at all. What really frustrates me however is when we as pilots start allowing this all too human trait to color our discourse concerning who is more qualified for a certain job. Statements such as: "military pilots are better than civilians", "Pilots with a 121 background make better pilots at the majors", "My jet's bigger than yours"...etc. are all examples of us allowing our biases and need to validate our choices affect our ability to look at an issue clearly and apply sound reasoning.

Strip away all the BS for a minute and try to see if you agree with this basic truth (In my opinion): If you can fly a jet or two(or turboprop) and have been flying around for several employers for a few years, you are capapble of doing the job. You are correct that its an employer's market right now. To obtain more qualified applicants, anyone can demand specific qualifications such as more total time, more PIC time, etc. REQUIRING A SPECIFIC BACKGROUND AT THE EXCLUSION OF OTHERS IS NOT ONE OF THESE THINGS. I'm not saying Air Tran can't do this, I'm saying they shouldn't. You say I can't compare 121 to 135? You are correct that it is a lot different. I do wear more hats than just pilot, and that does make for a different workday. You probably fly more legs on most days than I do. You certainly fly more. (I average 50-60 hours a month) I go to more varied destinations and fly more unusual missions. (I spent thursday night and friday morning going down to Panama City (not Florida) to get a heart patient, with a fuel stop in Cancun on the way back.) Regardless of these subtlties, understand something here. I can't speak for other 135 operators, but at my airline I can assure you this: During the conduct of a routine passenger flight, from the point where you and I say "Starting engines checklist please" to the point at which our partners says: "Shutdown checklist complete." There is NO appreciable difference between our cockpits except for ACARS usuage and a pushback procedure.

You suggest that if I was really dedicated to a potential employer that I'd go fly for a regional. I think you're missing the point. There is no way I'm going to give up being PIC and take a 40 to 60 thousand dollar pay cut unless it's a company I'd like to retire from.

You said I had to convince the folks on this board that I deserved a job without 121 time!? Maybe you should convince the hundreds of major airline pilots on this board without any 121 experience before their current employer that they somehow didn't deserve the job as much as their peers from the regionals. Sound absurd? IT IS. This is my point sir: Safety AND profitability are best served by haveing a group of aviators with all sorts of experiences. From bush flying to freight dogs, to instructors to corporate, to military, to chater to government, our jobs are most interesting and fun when we are afforded the opportunity to share a cockpit with people who have varied types of experiences. I'm glad you were able to go fly for the regionals. You're a more well-rounded pilot for it. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that because it was right for you that everyone should, and doing so somehow makes them better than those who have not. I hope we share a cockpit someday together. We'd BOTH learn something.

Warmest Regards,

Dan

 

[Swerpipe]

Amen, my brother

LJDRVR,
Thankfully, many pilots think like flx757 as opposed to uh ho...

Some day in the near future you'll be seating across an interviewer that will ask you why should we hire you.? He'll like your answer better than Uh oh...'s who will say that he should be hired since he belongs to the Elite group.

"You CAN'T compare the two (same planet, different worlds...)"

Interesting... we have furloughed guys who don't agree with Uh oh's contention that Part 135 is a breeze or a joke.

 

[DCitrus9]

sewer pipe, you said "Bottom line: go to Southwest. You'll be much better there...Trust me.
This is in a response against airtran because of a hiring prerequisite. It's seems odd to me since southwest requires you to buy a type rating in a 737 and also requires 1000 turbine PIC. Sooo, according to you it's ok for southwest, but AirTran is a big meanie because they want to see a certain amount of experience? You lose a lot of credibility with that kind of attitude.
LJDRVR: nobody said 121 background makes a better pilot at the majors except you. AirTran is simply looking for the pilots that fit the operation best. This helps in the training both for initial and the quick upgrade.
I believe there is a good reason for this change in mins as it narrows down the stack without EEOC hassles. I'm sorry if it kicks some of you out of the running, but there is also a good chance they will make exceptions for 135 PIC and the like. Bottom line, there are a lot of stupid requirements out there for jobs: jetblue:1000 hours in aircraft over 20,000lbs, SW type rating, etc that seem unfair and arbitrary to some, but are justifiable to someone else.
Life's a bitch but I deal with it...

 

[Swerpipe]

1000 hour requirement

DCitrus9,

I was only refering to a requirement that excludes a group like military, Part 121 or Part 91 etc.. Experience like 1000 hour PIC turbine is not discriminatory since pilots from all backgrounds get that type of experience. Neither is a type rating. Since all you need is the money, dedication and time, but it does not favor someone over another. Am I missing something? How can you see it as the same issue? I do not want to work for Air Tran, but I think that the policy is wrong. By the way, can not think of one major airline with such a policy. FLX757 who works for AirTran also agrees with me.
I accept it, no sweat, I just don't agree with it. Do you think that is fair? if you do that's just great...

 

[AJWick]

The flip side:


"we are looking for a Lear 45 pilot current and qualified Part 135 with a 8410...."

"Immediate availability for an HS 125 type rated PIC and SIC position...."

"King Air 200 Captain....requirements PIC 135 FlightSafety current..."

"need a captain who has 1500 hours PIC in Lears...this is a FAR 135 operation"

"Beechjet Captains and co-pilots needed....min. requirements
current 135 400 letter A...1 year part 135 experience"...time in a/c etc

and the lists could go on and on and on.

When I was furloughed from USAir....I couldnt get a job anywhere corporate or 135. I could go on but I think you get the point. It sucks both ways.

aj

 

[DCitrus9]

sewrpipe said "Since all you need is the money, dedication and time, but it does not favor someone over another"
If you do have the dedication, get the 121 pic
It is just as attainable as turbine or heavy time. If you want the job, get the credentials. Since you don't want the job, it doesn't affect you. It does have a bearing on the company though, and therefore their decision stands as is.

 

[flx757]

If you do have the dedication, get the 121 pic

Sure. If you don't have any 121 PIC time today, then if things break your way, meaning you can land any 121 job today, and wait for your upgrade, then acquire the 500 hours, you MIGHT have the minimums 5 years from now. Who knows what this industry will look like in 5 years? I certainly hope and expect AirTran to continue to be a success in this industry 5 years from now, but we need effective policies in place to ensure this success. In the meantime, many quality pilots and people are excluded based not on their experience (turbojet PIC time acquired under FAR 135 or in the corporate/fractional world, for example), but solely on one type of operation where this experience was gained. These pilots could bring valuable experience and insight to the pilot group.

It does have a bearing on the company though, and therefore their decision stands as is.

That doesn't make it right. But, I agree it has a bearing on the company. A negative one. I absolutely believe that any company needs a well-rounded employee group, including the pilots, to succeed. This absurd limitation can only help ensure that AirTran will not have one. I can't emphasize enough how much I disagree with this policy, and intend to let this be known.

I'll climb down from my soap box on this forum, since I have let my feelings be known here, but I will continue to let them be known in the proper channels.

 

[DAL737FO]

121 PIC or military equivalent - 500 hours

Not trying to add fuel to this fire but what do you guys consider a military equivalent to part 121 PIC. No really I'm serious. The first thing that came to my mind was a C-141 or C-17 Aircraft commander. I sure didn't think of a single seat fighter type guy. Heck I have 1,145 hours in a C-12 and I don't know if that would count.

 

[Swerpipe]

AirTran is simply looking for the pilots that fit the operation best. This helps in the training both for initial and the quick upgrade.

DCitrus9,

How does a military pilot fit a Part 121 operation better than a Part 135 pilot? Your statement makes no sense to me. I mean really, how is a Navy F/A-18 carrier pilot better suited to AirTran than a Part 135 pilot? I am not saying a 135 driver is better but rather that it depends on the individual. I do see a lot more commonality between Part 135 and 121 operations than flying missions off an aircraft carrier. By the way, I think pilots from all backgrounds can fit any Part 121 operation. Given their flight experience I would be more interested in their personality, attitude and who they are as people. Your statement makes me think you are really biased. Are you?

 

[FLB717]

OK lets just cut through the BS for a moment and look at it from an HR point of views. remember they are not pilots.

1) 6000 resumes' for 100 jobs.

2) Thousands of 121 and 135 pilots at Home Depot

3) WE CAN PICK WHO WE WANT!

I dont see the difference between USA, NWA, DAL, SWA, all had thier minumums in Turbine, PIC etc when they were hiring. The difference is many pilots are now on the street and they all want (most) shot at a job. I would never even get a interview with the time I've gotten in the last 2+ years here. But I was hired in the past. Does that mean I am less qualified now then earlier, NO? The number of people and qualifications have. So it is unfair the 98% of the people at Delta had college degrees. It a way to sort and check boxes, not fair to all but the bottom line is the Company not making Bobby and Susie happy.

 

[Midnight Mike]

Every company changes their requirements, no big deal, hell Southwest changed their requirements
several times of the years. It did not used to be a requirement to have a 737 type before joining Southwest,
now you need a 737 type rating just to send in an application with SW.

In the Valuejet day, pilots needed a DC9 rating before joining, which was attained at Flight Safety. If Airtran
needs more pilots the requirements will change again.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Sorta on the same line as Midnight Mike was saying... Times being not so good right now, they make the requirements more stringent.. cuts down on resume's... give it a few years and i am sure that 500 121 requirement wont be there, but it definatly sucks for 135 guys that want to go there now... IMO

 

[cgmason1]

121 PIC or military equivalent - 500 hours

Not trying to add fuel to this fire but what do you guys consider a military equivalent to part 121 PIC. No really I'm serious. The first thing that came to my mind was a C-141 or C-17 Aircraft commander. I sure didn't think of a single seat fighter type guy. Heck I have 1,145 hours in a C-12 and I don't know if that would count.

Come on DAL737FO
You know as well as I do that flying that RC-12 around in circles over the Rok is just like what a 121 carrier does...well sort of (just kidding)
Now the military C40, C-9, Gulfstream Etc gigs-with pax, flt attendant's and ops compariable to an actual airline is another story.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[flx757]

It a way to sort and check boxes, not fair to all but the bottom line is the Company not making Bobby and Susie happy.

I can't believe we have another company pilot here that can't see the forest for the trees. Sure, the company can hire whomever they want, and it's a way to sort and check boxes. An exceptionally poor way.

I would think you would have a vested interest in the long term viability of this company. Ridiculous policies will prevent that from happening. Look around you.

I challenge anyone on this board to convince me that someone with 500 hours in a non autopilot, non EFIS, non FMS equipped B1900 is MORE qualified, and "fits the operation better" (note I said more qualified and better fit, not AS qualified...MORE qualified), than, for example, a fractional pilot with thousands of hours in a modern, high tech business jet such as a BBJ, Falcon 900, or G-V. So much more qualified that we totally exclude these pilots from consideration. It is absolutely absurd, and it worries me that those who make these decisions are this shortsighted. It worries me a great deal. It also worries me that so many of my collegues think this is ok, and that it's no different than other companies requiring turbine PIC time, which can be gained at any type of operation, not just a 121 carrier.

Now the military C40, C-9, Gulfstream Etc gigs-with pax, flt attendant's and ops compariable to an actual airline is another story.

Fly Safe
Chuck

But flying Gulfstream gigs--with pax, flt attendants and ops comparable to an actual airline with a corporate, fractional or 135 operator is not another story.

But, I'm done with this subject here. It's a real shame that it became a subject at all.

 

[Intruder One]

Welcome to the world of airline hiring.You will never know what these guys want or looking for.Myself and friends included have been to several interviews and seen people hired that will blow your mind.Do not try to figure out what they want or what they are looking for......its all a crap shoot.If you want to give it a try go for it,after some of the stuff I've seen everyone has about the same chance.Butter up HR depatments they seem to hold alot of cards at most company's.Just remember alot of them do not have a aviation background so be careful,good or bad.