AirTran New Mins.

[five-o]

Ok, let's look at it from a historical perspective. I've been with AirTran Airways since Jan '96 and this is NOT the first time the minimums have changed - behind the scenes. This is however, the first time AirTran has published new, albeit different, minimum requirements.

In '96 (I was with AirTran - Orlando) we looked for people with crazy flight hours - 10,000+ and lots of former 121 time - Eastern, PanAm, etc. Look at the seniority list. From the people I've met since the merger, ValuJet was no different. We were both trying to grow and take people with similar backgrounds and experience to do it. Both took their share of military pilots as well.

In '97, both companies were struggling to make it. Eventually we merged, and the roller-coaster ride continued. Not a great deal of hiring during this year, but still - going for lots of experience.

In '98, post-merger, the "we're something else" AirTran was hiring again. The published minimums were 2500 TT, 1000 PIC (any PIC), and 500 ME FW. At this point, hiring was pretty strong to support the growth of the two airlines coming together. But, we were hiring any person with a commercial pilot certificate that would 1), work for $25k per year, and 2) sign a two-year training contract - not a lot to sell. Oh yeah, not making a profit either.

In '99, we were hiring for the new 717 - the gem of the skies if you ask me. Minimums were the same, and we were still taking any competent pilot. Pay was the same... hours were max... life was not pretty... new leadership team coming on... but the dreamers came (and stayed) because we knew that AirTran was going to be the next best thing - real soon!

In 2000, we started catching on. Others were beginning to look at us as an airline with a future, rather than an airline with a past. Our upgrade time was getting low - 2 years - and management new that we needed people who had had similar operating experience - 121 PIC (or military equivalent). BUT, the big bad majors were still hiring, and it was still the dreamers plus the guys with recommendations that were getting the job. And we got lots of crap about "well you have to have a recommendation."

In 2001, we were becoming the "in" place to be. We were profitable, we had weathered the storm so to speak. And yes, the resumes started flooding the place. People from all over started handing me resumes to walk into the HR office - and some of those people even admitted - "I would have never considered doing this 2 years ago." But, the minimums were the same - in print. Were these the people (min time) that were getting hired? Probably not. Were these the people (min time)that were successful in training, on the line, and in upgrade? Not necessarily. After 9/11 - the actions we took as a pilot group and as an airline spoke volumes about the people of our company. And THEN, the volume of resumes became obnoxious.

In 2002, hiring continued at a pretty good pace. Although the published minimums remained the same, we all know that the people that were getting hired had a decent amount of time (5000+) and plenty of 121 PIC. I got to help in a job fair in Nov '02 and overheard a person in our line say "I think it's rediculous that they ask you to get a recommendation." It was never a hard fast rule, but this guy wasn't getting the job either.

In 2003 - the year of controversy - hiring still continues. And yes, the resume situation is still incredible. So new minimums were published. But I did not see "if you don't meet the minimums, don't bother applying" written on the website, nor have I heard this from HR or the Chief Pilot's office. But, obviously some of you read this - or rather you read into this - and have expressed your concerns.

In closing let me say this - the management (Klaus Goersch) was hired a little after I was. If you ask me, we have the best, most well-rounded pilot group in the industry. The caring and compassion we have for this airline is extreme. The bond we have is incredible, and that's why we're still here today! Something must be right, otherwise we'd have a bunch of miserable complainers that post on this site all the time.

So.... if you don't agree with the "new mins" keep your resume (and your attitude) in your back pocket. You never know when things will change!

 

[Caveman]

AirTran can require any minimums they want. It's their company. Requiring previous 121 experience for a 121 job doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I do think they are arbitrarily eliminating some awfully talented people when they ignore 135/corporate pilots.

I'm curious about one thing though. I wonder how loud the screaming and gnashing of teeth would be if they left off the phrase "or military equvilent"? My guess is that the present cadre of former military pilots at AirTran would never let the company close the door on their squadron buddies. Unfortunately the 135/corporate guys probably aren't present in enough numbers to have any clout.

 

[FLB717]

Five-O.....Well said ...great points.

 

[atldc9]

I just finished a trip with a new guy, fresh off ioe, that had no 135, 121 or corporate time. Matter of fact, he had no heavy or large transport time either. Strictly a fighter guy. Very nice, very professional, and didn't come close to the published min's. He was still hired.

I know a lot of people who were hired with less then the "published min's".

I think this is being blown way out of proportion.

 

[AV8OR]

Strictly a fighter guy.

Well there ya go! Fighter time......Part 121 PIC there's hardly a difference!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

400a,

A "complex" or "superiority" thing for me???
I dont think so...

My 135 comments will always be just an opinion. That 135 work sucks, and operators who tell you they need to do 135 to keep the plane running are short timers, my advice to anyone there is look, and look hard, for a job because yours will be gone sometime in the future.

Check your position.."CHIEF PILOT" of a three person outfit!! running a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** Beechjet. How did ya get that title?
Im guessing you made it all up yourself..
Are the other 2 "Director of Maint" and "Director of Ops" or do you wear all three hats?

Some of us have such big vacant egos to fill we need those "Chief Pilot" titles huh?

 

[Ty Webb]

Falconfondler:

You are living proof that having a bigger airplane or a "better" job does not guarantee that one will be happy. You are obviously a very unhappy person , a nasty, bitter little man.

Have a nice life, somewhere else.

 

[b757driver]

Maybe no one should question airline HR policy but then the applications should not have the golden words "we are an Equal Opportunity Employer" embossed on the final page of every application or on their web-sites. Clearly, some people are more equal than others! If you are one of those trying to defend this policy then answer that one, using the same logic! Don't just talk the talk - walk the walk also.

It is clear that a policy like this IS discriminatory & those airlines that do it, do themselves a great disservice. If diversity & well-roundedness are key traits that airlines desire, this is no way to go forward. If you simply want to change the goal posts in order to make it harder for the pilot candidate, fine, there are plenty of creative ways of doing that. No useful purpose is served by dismissing one group entirely and then making out you are still an EOE!! Duh? And, as one previous poster mentions, I can almost hear the uproar if the "or military time" were also omitted (and before you all hose me on that one, I am ex-military but I don't think I'm special because of it!)

What about the candidate who has stacks of jet SIC time - hypothetically even on a B717 - and through NO fault of his/her own has been furloughed or laid off from several carriers - and NEVER made it to 121 PIC? Does that make that type of candidate any less of a "worthy" candidate? Attitude, resilience and tenacity, especially under adverse conditions, are far better indicators of future success than any 121 PIC time. I've seen plenty of guys with high PIC time lose their situational awareness and then try to blame their FO for ending up hot and high on the approach because their egos had been bruised. Yes, I am generalizing here, but you get my point, hopefully.

Besides, is ANY airline going to hire direct into the LHS? I don't think so, not even SWA. Also, the last time I looked in a FOTM, it said that
all First Officers are considered Captains- in-Training . My point, if you are going to get specific why not include that to include SIC time as well. There have been many well-documented cases where a PIC's ass has been saved (or not - KLM Tenerife) because he had a competent, SAFE & great attitude FO sitting next to him using his CRM etc. But, according to Air Tran, none of that counts any more. That is mean-spirited, very insulting to those otherwise qualified candidates and extremely short-sighted. They can do it because it is not illegal, but that does not make it right.

And finally, guess what? In most other countries (& I'm not talking about third world here) they don't even care that much for PIC turbine, just overall time on type and/or category. They don't have all this 121, 135, 91, military elitist stuff. Who cares what your background is, if you can fly the plane safely? I have seen plenty of "crusty" 121 PICs and to a lesser extent, some military pilots with very poor airmanship, attitude and man-mangement skills. I'm not trying to knock any single aviator category here. what I'm trying to say is that there is good apples and bad ones in EVERY industry, job whetever. No single group is better or worse than another. To insinuate that it is (by Air Tran's "new" requirements) is to perpetuate the myth that one group IS better than another and more likely to succeed. Excuse me, but what utter B@#$%^&p as Dr. Phil would say! Yes, any airline, or company for that matter, wants the best but how do you define best?

flx757 speaks volumes in his posts and this is from an experienced Air Tran Captain and Check Airman. With his credentials you would think he would know a thing or two about training, suitability and fairness. And I agree wholeheartedly with him. It takes a man of courage to stand up to the plate and say it is wrong - especially about your own company - and I, for one, applaud you for that. It's a pity there are not more like you who tell it like it is.

And no, I have not applied to Air Tran nor have I been turned down by them. I have just observed a lot of discriminatory hiring practices over the past decade, based on false assumptions. And no, I'm not bitter. I just feel for those folks who have worked so hard to get an opportunity have their hopes dashed because of some arbitrary "rule" that no one can challenge. Yes, no one owes you a job nor an interview. But by the same token, everyone is supposed to be equal. It's bad enough to change hiring policy in such a subjective way but @ least have the decency to say it like it is ..."we are proud to be an Unequal Opportunity Employer and we actively discourage diversity in the workplace..." Somehow I doubt they'll do that....but you never know in this business!
___________________________________________
It's Nice to Be Important, But It's More Important To Be Nice

 

[400A]

G-200

see there you go again, first its 135, now it is the beechjet,,, How much Beechjet do you have anyway.

I agree with TY, you are a sad, unhappy person, and I feel sorry for you. I bet you are one of those guys no one wants to fly with because you sit all day and complain. I bet you even complain about flying something as sweet as the 900

Mabe it was the G-200 that made you this way...Not really a Gulfstream anyway, Just an overgrown westwind... I notice none of your ratings say G-- in front of them.. I'm sure that would be important to a guy like you. That means you are not truly a Gulfstream Pilot.

As far as my title, I am sure that outburst made you feel better, and I am sorry you are not one... I bet I know the reason.. As far as my other employees, their titles are Captain, Captain and Charter Coordinator. Not only that, my employees have been with me for a very long time, including when I had the same title at a fortune 500 company with 8 aircraft and 12 pilots. We chose to leave for this employer.

By the way, I did not give myself this title, It is in the corporate charter. I could not care less what the title is. It just means that I am responsible,,, or in your case, the one you would blame your miserable life on.

As far as my job going away,, I dont think so. Plane is paid for. the new one we are getting will be too. Any job can go away, I am betting it will be you and your crappy attitude on the unemployment line first... I'll see ya there!!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

.... the applications should not have the golden words "we are an Equal Opportunity Employer" embossed on the final page of every application or on their web-sites. Clearly, some people are more equal than others!

It is clear that a policy like this IS discriminatory & those airlines that do it, do themselves a great disservice.

I am ex-military but I don't think I'm special because of it!)

What about the candidate who has stacks of jet SIC time - hypothetically even on a B717 - and through NO fault of his/her own has been furloughed or laid off from several carriers - and NEVER made it to 121 PIC?

the last time I looked in a FOTM, it said that
all First Officers are considered Captains- in-Training .

The folks who do not have 121 PIC time through no fault of their own are not qualified at FedEx, SWA, or Airtran. Just as a Commercial pilot night be training for an ATP, as FO "in training" has not achieved that goal yet and does not have that qualification to put on their resume. It certainly does not mean they are not capable, it just means they don't have what that particular airline requires.

Airlines have the right and the obligation to be discriminatory in hiring. Candidly, I wish there was more discrimination and less of the sqadron mate, buddy system. If hiring could be based entirely on published objective standards candidates could prepare and the best person could get hired, regardless.

When Airtran says they are an "Equal Opportunity Employer" they are simply stating that they abide by Federal Labor Law. I see nothing in Airtan's published minimums that violates any of the following:
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act
The Age Discrimination in Employment Act
The Equal Pay Act
The Immigration and Reform and Control Act, and
The American with Disabilities Act.

Nothing prepares a pilot for the part 121 environment than previous experience in the 121 environment. Part 121 PIC simply means that that person has met the highest standards required for part 121 line flying.

It may seem like the only difference is sitting three feet further to the left, but a lot changes when you put on the Capatin's hat. Until you have been there, had to set the pace, had to make the decisions, had to get the airplane off icy runways and made the zillions of little decisions regarding what is important and what isn't you can not really appreciate the difference. New Captains tend to make a lot of mistakes in the first 500 hours and if Airtran can avoid the difficulties of that transition and obtain some guarantee that the transition will go smoothly - well their discrimination appears to be a bonifide good idea to me.

Regards,
~~~^~~~
(A happy Airtran stockholder)

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"my employees"?....you own them chief??

thats as good as "my co-pilot"

..."charter coordinator"!!!! better you then me bro....

enjoy the "paid for" Beechjet!!!!!

Sounds like a perfect job for you.
I hope you and your employees have a long stable career there.
A good job these days can be hard to find.

 

[b757driver]

Dear AirTran shareholder,

You are correct about FedEx, SWA etc. However, you ARE missing the point. You did not say HOW one gets that experience if opportunities for getting it are taken away!!

How can you get 121 PIC when the very carriers that demand it, automatically exclude you from having that opportunity?! Keep in mind, not all of us have the Midas touch and cannot control the fate of our employers & in turn, our own continued employment. In case you are unaware, at the last count, there were approx. 9,000 highly QUALIFIED & EXPERIENCED pilots pounding the pavement, some with 121 PIC, others with 135 PIC or corporate etc. Having 121 PIC is NO GUARANTEE that you will be successful. If it were, my friend, then EVERYONE would be having these same minimums. Not only that, but how come airlines flying the same Boeings, Airbusses whatever over in Europe, do not demand that their candidates have previous 121 (or eqiv.) PIC time? The market there is much healthier than here currently, so they must be doing something right, don't you think?
Your argument is kinda like the chicken or egg syndrome.

And for the record, before I was experienced/typed on the 737, I had NO PIC on that type, matter of fact, I had NO SIC either. In fact, I had absolutely NO PRIOR airline experience of any sort at that time. Ditto for the 737NG and the 757/767 (PIC/SIC, that is). Did that mean I was not up to it? Of course not, I got all my type ratings in minimal time the first time round with no overages. I even went on to pick up a couple of additional ICAO licenses/ratings. On one occasion, I had not flown the aircraft (SIC- the dirty word) for almost 4 YEARS but was typed. Not only did I GET the job but the only training I received before I was released to the line, was 4 sim sessions and 10 sectors of IOE. Things went so well that I became # 1 FO on the seniority list and became one of 6 pilots to convert straight from the 737-200 to 737-800NG and eventually fly that on the line.
I had absolutely NO PREVIOUS jet PIC time! How on earth was I able to do all this and in minimal time with NO previous airline PIC time? Answer, the company did not care. They were clearly & rightly so, only interested in overall flying ability - not from which seat I flew. Had I stayed for a few months longer (but that's another story), I would have gotten my upgrade on the 737NG, again with no previous experience.

So, you see, 121 PIC time proves absolutely nothing, it's just a smoke screen that people seem to buy into. It's very typical of rules being brought in that have not been thought through properly, if at all; seemed like a reasonable thing to do at the time. Maybe, most likely not. It's unfair, discriminatory & unnecessary. Why do you think that even a senior AirTran Capt (flx757) vehemently disagrees with this policy? And we are talking about a Check Airman here who knows about training. You also mention the word "guarantee" in your final paragraph. There are NO guarantees in life and even less in this particular industry. As a shareholder, you should know all about guarantees aka the stock market. I respect your views but don't agree with them. I have personal experience of this from both operational and overseas perspectives.

We all know about EOE etc. Just seems to make a mockery of mission statements when they can say that when clearly, they do NOT practice what they preach with regard to the pilot employee groups. Once again, it may be legal ,but that does not make it RIGHT.
As they say...only in America!

 

[Ty Webb]

FLX757 has a great amount of experience, but he is currently an FO at AirTran. His Check Airman experience and PIC ecxperience were at other carriers. When I make Captain, I would sure feel lucky to have him as my FO for the few months that separate us on the seniority list, though!

As for the current rules . . . . I think if the pilots had more input over the selection criteria, it would be much different.

Unfortunately, that is not the case . . . . at the present, the DO can set the minimums where he wants them, and we have little say about it.

Oddly enough, under the current rules, if I applied today, I couldn't even be considered for an interview, even though I have already been doing the job for the Company for over a year and a half- simply because I was a 135 PIC, not a 121 PIC before I came here.

Hopefully, this will be changed.

 

[b757driver]

There you go, Ty Webb, exactly my point! Thanks for speaking up. We all know exactly how & why these "deals" are made.

Isn't it amazing that even you would not cut the mustard under the "new" rules - that just speaks volumes, right there!!! And - I suspect a lot of your colleagues are probably in the same boat.

When can we go back to the good old days when the rank and file PILOTS actually had a say on who gets hired? Good God, what a concept that would be?!?!

Thanks for your honesty and fair appraisal of the situation. Slanging matches without real substance lead nowhere; you made your point & you made it well.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

If i recall the last airline which actually had pilots had some major say in the hiring was Piedmont. When i flew for SAT years ago, I was j/s on a flight and asked them about hiring and that is what he said. No 'HR' dept. "Give me a resume and I take it in and see what the guys think". THAT would be a ray of light.