AirTran New Mins.

[English]

flx 757 is right on.

I have 121 PIC turbine experience (but not 500 hours due to being furloughed). I do have over 500 hours of PIC turbine in the 135/91 arena. I have gained much more useful experience as a captain for a fractional than I ever did as an airline captain. As a 121 captain, most decisions were pretty cut and dried - look in the manual, discuss with dispatch and/or maintenance, confer with crew when needed, and voila - ready-made decision. At my current job, there is no guidance at all except my own common sense and experience. As a 121 pilot, I was bumping around in the low levels in a turboprop using VORs. Now, I fly an airplane with the Collins Pro Line 21, Universal FMS, etc. up to FL450.

So, in my humble opinion, I think AirTran is missing the forest for the trees. I understand wanting to make the requirements more competitive to match the current pool of applicants. Uping the minimum requirements will allow fewer pilots to apply, reducing their workload. I'm all for that. But singling out 135, fractional and corporate pilots because of a perceived "less-value" in their experience is not cool.

 

[sleepy]

Given the current situation they can be as selective as they want to be. When things turn around for the majors, I'm sure that their mins will have to change to something lower. 500 hours of Part 121 PIC doesn't seem that restrictive to me. There must be thousands of current and furloughed regional and commuter airline pilots that meet this min.

 

[IAHERJ]

I don't think this decision was made on a whim. Unfortunately I believe a few corporate guys had some trouble in training and gave the rest of the corporate world a bad name. It is unfortunate for the many hard working fractional and corporate jet pilots who fly 50 hours a month on up and would have no trouble in training at Airtran. Having some good friends who fly corporate and want to work for Airtran, I can tell you that this disssapoints me as an Airtran pilot but I'm not the one scouring through several hundred resume's a week trying to figure out which corporate pilot will fit the airline mold quickly thus keeping our training cost down. They are busy over there in H.R. and according to a very senior check airman, this Fall will be a very busy one for the training department as we have upped our hiring #'s again. Airtran could very well hire 250-300 pilots in 2003 when it is all said and done. I'll believe that rumor when # 250 starts IOE but that "rumor" has been floating around lately.
I feel certain that exceptions will be made and if I was applying from the corporate world I would continue to update and stress in writing your monthly flight time totals indicating to the recruiters that you are current and committed to the process. Good luck to those interested in this job.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I would agree with IAHERJ

And I'm sure most AirTran guys would agree that when the recruiters receive information about a problem pilot new hire (whether in training or on the line, and both have happened recently) they seem to discriminate against the pilot group from which that pilot came from. I know it is very unfair, but it seems to be their practice. When a couple of Comair newhires quit class and went back to comair after the strike - they stopped hiring Comair pilots for quite a while. When problems started on line with 20,000-hours-PIC-in-heavy-jet-cargo guys - they stopped hiring them.
Same works in reverse - they LOVE CCAir and Comutair guys here.

And now I hear some one with corporate background is drawing attention to himself. It is very unfortunate for the rest of excellent pilots out there. And once again, I disagree with recruiters approach to solve those problems, but as many mentioned before, today they can choose what they want.

 

[AV8OR]

It's not the company...

.......it's the VP flight ops from what my intel says. Klaus Goersch is former Mesaba and for whatever reason has .

Here's his bio off the website.

"Klaus Goersch, vice president – flight operations, is responsible for the pilot group, dispatch and system operations control, and crew scheduling and planning at AirTran Airways.

Goersch most recently served as an FAA examiner and director of corporate training for Mesaba Aviation, Inc.

A native of Germany, Goersch began his pilot career at Lufthansa German Airlines. He also holds an airline transport pilot certificate and is qualified as captain and checkairman on the Boeing 717 for AirTran Airways."

As someone who has been persistent in my application to Airtran for the past couple of years, I am as dissapointed as anybody. Heck, I'm working for a major 121 cargo airline now but but have no 121 PIC there. I can tell you what though, our airline hires captains plain and simple. When I make captain there, I'll have no more 121PIC than I do now. What our HR knows is that a professional thinks like a captain no matter what seat he's in. I think the right interview should be able to determine fairly well whether a guy is captain material. Am I willing to give up my seniority number, excellent pay and retirement to go to Airtran, you bet. Am I willing to start over at a regional at $20K a year so that I can maybe get an interview at Airtran in a few years after I make captain. Don't think so.

So, I guess the bottom line is, Airtran has drawn their line and I've drawn mine. Am I as qualified as a regional jet captain? As far as Airtran is concerned, no I am not. Does it piss me off. Yeah, a little, because I feel like I have made it clear via my LORs, e-mails, updated resumes, going to Airinc seminars that I was willing to, my family was willing to make some big sacrifices, (sell the house, resign the number, big cut in pay, etc) and Airtran looks at my experience dilligence and dedication and says no thanks. So be it. To bad.

It reminds me of a comment I heard at an Airinc seminar back around the beginning of the airline hiring boom. A United pilot rep in his uniform looked at a guys resume who had been furloughed during the last airline bust of the early ninties. This guy had worked at Home Depot for a while or something like that for a while before he had gotten back in the saddle, you know so he could feed his family. This guy was very qualified, and this arrogant prick looks at the guy and says, "Well, while you are very qualified, at United we look for guys who don't have any breaks in their aviation carreer. We feel that it shows a real dedication to your profession."

The reason it comes to mind is because it was an arrogant statement and was a rediculous requirement. This new "min" from Klause is arrogant as well and so people are going to be offended.

One last thing. As far as the "Well, we have all these furloughed 121 pilots we can choose from." argument. It just seems to me that if I'm hiring people, I'd rather have a guy who is willing to leave a current job, with a pay cut, possible move, etc., because he wants to be at Airtran than someone who wants to be there because all of a sudden his job is gone.

Good luck to all who apply interview and get hired. Hope they don't change the "mins" on you once you get them. Thanks to all the Citrus pilots who have been very helpful to me in my pursuit. Not lookin good though.

Adios.

 

[trainerjet]

And I'm sure most AirTran guys would agree that when the recruiters receive information about a problem pilot new hire (whether in training or on the line, and both have happened recently) they seem to discriminate against the pilot group from which that pilot came from.

This whole discussion is very interesting, and has definitely caught my attention and my eyebrows are raised to their full extent. It seems like once I heard about a tall, skinny guy having trouble in training. Are they still considering tall, skinny guys at Air Tran, or are they off the list now, too? BIZARRE to say the least.

- they LOVE CCAir and Comutair guys here.

Then for the sake of the entire company, and especially the pilots, I hope those are good companies, since evidently Air Tran is destined to become a larger version of CCAir/Commutair.

.......it's the VP flight ops from what my intel says.

Then it pretty much IS the company, which is too bad.

Good luck to those interested in this job.

Revelations made in this thread by the Air Tran pilots regarding the company's recruitment thought process have made this job seem much less "interesting".

 

[FLB717]

FLX757 soory but what I wrote I feel are the facts of how any HR does bussiness. It may not be right but that is how it is. Ive got two real good friends who are not 121 PIC qualified now that I would love to get hired. As far as problems with certain groups in training yeah it a bitch. That is the reason when you interview and are in training, probation you smile and say"Glad to be Here" So your pals do not get a bad rep. I find it strange that some are complaining because thay may not be qualified for AAI any more. Well you couldnt apply to SWA or JBLU either. WE are not the hirer of anybody with a pulse. I was a Corporate guy and I left my good job to get payed crap at a 121 Regeonal so I could get hired by and Larger Airline. If you dont want to meet the quals ok, thats your choice I will not ever say you are wrong. Its the company chose and right to demand any qual they want. If a minimum is to stand on your head with a monkey balenced on your left foot that is the requirement. Personaly from the people Ive meet in the training side of things ex-major pilots are great, but the regeonal level guys have much better attitude. You can agree or not, it makes no difference to me.

 

[B190Captain]

FLX757 soory but what I wrote I feel are the facts of how any HR does bussiness. It may not be right but that is how it is. Ive got two real good friends who are not 121 PIC qualified now that I would love to get hired. As far as problems with certain groups in training yeah it a bitch. That is the reason when you interview and are in training, probation you smile and say"Glad to be Here" So your pals do not get a bad rep. I find it strange that some are complaining because thay may not be qualified for AAI any more. Well you couldnt apply to SWA or JBLU either. WE are not the hirer of anybody with a pulse. I was a Corporate guy and I left my good job to get payed crap at a 121 Regeonal so I could get hired by and Larger Airline. If you dont want to meet the quals ok, thats your choice I will not ever say you are wrong. Its the company chose and right to demand any qual they want. If a minimum is to stand on your head with a monkey balenced on your left foot that is the requirement. Personaly from the people Ive meet in the training side of things ex-major pilots are great, but the regeonal level guys have much better attitude. You can agree or not, it makes no difference to me.

You're kidding me right?

 

[likeitis]

.......it's the VP flight ops from what my intel says, Klaus Goersch.

I remember in 2000 Klaus saying he would have to question the decision making ability of someone who would stay at AirTran with an offer of employment at a Major. Now many of these people who took his advice don't meet the qualifications to return even though they would relinquish their senority numbers. I guess they aren't good enough anymore. What a piece of work. If you really want to know what this guy is about, ask some of the veteran Mesaba pilots. These guys/gals could tell you stories for days.

 

[flx757]

I find it strange that some are complaining because thay may not be qualified for AAI any more. Well you couldnt apply to SWA or JBLU either.

It's hard to respond to most of your post, since it's difficult to read, much less understand, but I can respond to your point above.

This is absolutely incorrect. A pilot with no 121 PIC time can most certainly apply to SWA and JBLU. In fact, both of these companies encourage applications from, and fill their classes with, pilots from a wide variety of backgrounds. Their minimums, which include either turbine or turbine PIC time, or in the case of jetBlue, 1000 hrs in aircraft over 20,000 MTOW can be attained in virtually any type of operation.

My training background consists of over twenty years as a line check airman, sim instructor, and sim check airman. I've seen good, bad and indifferent attitudes from pilots of every background. As such, it's pointless to debate which group of pilots have "much better attitude". In fact, this whole debate is pointless. AirTran is going to do what they are going to do, and it's obvious that we as pilots have no say in the matter. What's disappointing to me is that so few seem to care, or worse, don't have a clue about the implications of the current policy.

 

[FL717]

It's hard to respond to most of your post, since it's difficult to read, much less understand, but I can respond to your point above.

I agree. FLB717... you got some good points to share my friend, but you gotta start proofreading your posts. That was pretty bad.

What's disappointing to me is that so few seem to care, or worse, don't have a clue about the implications of the current policy.

Well I for one care, and believe I have a "clue" about the implications of this new policy, but all we can do is voice our concerns and "hope" right decisions are made/altered at the HR level. Being friends with you flx757, I understand your strong feelings on this issue, and hope changes or "waivers" are being considered for some of the applying folks out there.

 

[flx757]

Thank you, my friend.

 

[400A]

Air Tran Mins

I know the feeling well. In 2001 I was trying to get on at Air Tran.
I had 4000 hours, 1000 Jet PIC part 135, Instructor Captain, Check Airman and Chief Pilot. I also had 5 senior Airtran Captains(including the 717 program manager) endorse my resume that was hand carried in by a senior 717 capt. Still no interview.

However H.R. has to find a way to minimise its options. Some do it with degree's, others do it with Total Time and others do it with like flight experience. The market is flooded with VERY qualified pilots.

I run a small 135, 1 jet operation and I am getting 3-5 out of work airline pilots at my door each week. Its just that bad. With this same thought in mind, I, as an employer will pick the veteran charter / corporate guy over the furloughed airline guy. It is not personal. I am responsible for my training dollars and guys that have flown heavy's to long have to adjust. It is no different. We can all (most of us) think at 450kts and we can all fly an ILS, but the person doing the hiring has to have some way to seperate applicants.

Being the person responsible for hiring at my company, my best advice to you is to remain positive. No one owes you anything, it is a priviledge to get an interview anywhere in this time. H.R. people are trained to pick up on negative attitudes.

I would also like to fly for a major, but right now I see alot of guys from the majors that want my job.

 

[FLB717]

Sorry for the tip0s er.. typos...er ahhh crap. It was a long night and typing to fast, but I thank all for thier concern of my grammer afforded me by my Publix (sp?) education.

While I am glad we have pilots that want to see the best get hired I am not saying that what I or anyone else believes is the right or wrong way to hire. I can tell you for a fact that a guy from Piedmont left that company because he thought he had a job at AAI. The reason was all of the Piedmont people we have hired of late. Well he did not get the job and so he wrote a VERY pissy letter telling our HR that they truly suck because they were to stupid to not hire him. That is NOT the attitude of your average Piedmont driver. But it DOES reflect on the group. Luckly it had no effect because of the types that have come before him. If he had been one of the first to interview it may have changed many peoples lives. When a lot of Comair guys never showed for class it was some time before any others got hired. Then another guy from Comair does the same thing again. What group now doesnt get interviewed very often now. Being in a former life from Comair I hate that it has hurt chances of those who want to come to AAI. But I understand HR's rational. MY personal view is I only care that the person who is hired is SAFE and Personable in that order. Oh yeah, and wants this to be his last home.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The minimums at Comair are 1200 and 200 (unless you're in a "Bridge" program). I had an AMEL ATP, and I have a letter from Comair stating that I don't meet the minimum requirements. Now, this doesn't seem to make sense, as to get an ATP you need at least 1500 TT (I also had 550 AME Jet at the time).

The reason this occured, was that I received the letter in 1993, which was the most difficult time to get hired by the airlines. Comair raised their minimums so far that 1500-500 didn't cut it.

AirTran is now doing the same, because they can. There are a large number of VERY qualified pilots, and AirTran wants the best that they can get, so they raised their mins. In 2 or 3 years, the minimums will go back down-it's simple supply and demand.

The people that run AirTran are in control of AirTran, and they make the rules.

Sometimes I get frustrated, as I did when I didn't get a job offer at ACA, due to factors beyond my control. But hey, I don't run ACA, so I don't get to make the rules.

Try. If you fail, try again. If you succeed, also try again. Try. That's all you can do. Don't worry about what the airlines do, just keep trying. You have no control.

Cliff
GRB

PS-I could easily be laid off in a couple of weeks. I think it's stupid for my airline to furlough more people, but I'm not in control, so they might. I'm trying by sending out my apps all over again, and AirTran and ATA are now more out of reach-they used to be close. Too bad for me!

 

[Checks]

Cliff,

Keep your chin up. You seem like a great guy and will bounce back.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Eh,

I dont think a GIV captain with 5 other type ratings is gonna be bangin' on AIRTRANS door anyways.....

but yes, when times are hard they can pick or choose who they want....

there was a time not so far back that you had to pay 25K (or something) at FSI to "join" AIRTRAN at about 18K/yr pay. What a deal that was.

As long as times dont roll back to %hit like that we will be OK I guess!.....

 

[Ty Webb]

We've got guys with much better qualifications than that here. We've got former Air Force One pilots, Test Pilots, etc. What we don;t have a lot of is misinformed pompous asses such as yourself . . . and hopefully, it will stay that way.


there was a time not so far back that you had to pay 25K (or something) at FSI to "join" AIRTRAN at about 18K/yr pay. What a deal that was.


There was never a time like that here. Maybe you should stick to topics that you have some knowlege of.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

YEAH, Im sure Airtran gets all the cream of the crop buddy...

Air Force One pilots....
Test pilots....
GIV captains making 200K/yr...

all giving it up to get in your B717 huh??

WAKE UP man, you work at Airtran.
PFT critter by another name.....bringin down industry pay in a big way!

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't know what rock you've been living under, but we don't have PFT here. Your comments tell me a lot about you as a person- and I am embarassed for you.

I will tell you this, though, it's @ssholes like you that make it hard for other corporate guys to get on here.