AirTran New Mins.

[Midnight Mike]

Every company changes their requirements, no big deal, hell Southwest changed their requirements
several times of the years. It did not used to be a requirement to have a 737 type before joining Southwest,
now you need a 737 type rating just to send in an application with SW.

In the Valuejet day, pilots needed a DC9 rating before joining, which was attained at Flight Safety. If Airtran
needs more pilots the requirements will change again.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Sorta on the same line as Midnight Mike was saying... Times being not so good right now, they make the requirements more stringent.. cuts down on resume's... give it a few years and i am sure that 500 121 requirement wont be there, but it definatly sucks for 135 guys that want to go there now... IMO

 

[cgmason1]

121 PIC or military equivalent - 500 hours

Not trying to add fuel to this fire but what do you guys consider a military equivalent to part 121 PIC. No really I'm serious. The first thing that came to my mind was a C-141 or C-17 Aircraft commander. I sure didn't think of a single seat fighter type guy. Heck I have 1,145 hours in a C-12 and I don't know if that would count.

Come on DAL737FO
You know as well as I do that flying that RC-12 around in circles over the Rok is just like what a 121 carrier does...well sort of (just kidding)
Now the military C40, C-9, Gulfstream Etc gigs-with pax, flt attendant's and ops compariable to an actual airline is another story.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[flx757]

It a way to sort and check boxes, not fair to all but the bottom line is the Company not making Bobby and Susie happy.

I can't believe we have another company pilot here that can't see the forest for the trees. Sure, the company can hire whomever they want, and it's a way to sort and check boxes. An exceptionally poor way.

I would think you would have a vested interest in the long term viability of this company. Ridiculous policies will prevent that from happening. Look around you.

I challenge anyone on this board to convince me that someone with 500 hours in a non autopilot, non EFIS, non FMS equipped B1900 is MORE qualified, and "fits the operation better" (note I said more qualified and better fit, not AS qualified...MORE qualified), than, for example, a fractional pilot with thousands of hours in a modern, high tech business jet such as a BBJ, Falcon 900, or G-V. So much more qualified that we totally exclude these pilots from consideration. It is absolutely absurd, and it worries me that those who make these decisions are this shortsighted. It worries me a great deal. It also worries me that so many of my collegues think this is ok, and that it's no different than other companies requiring turbine PIC time, which can be gained at any type of operation, not just a 121 carrier.

Now the military C40, C-9, Gulfstream Etc gigs-with pax, flt attendant's and ops compariable to an actual airline is another story.

Fly Safe
Chuck

But flying Gulfstream gigs--with pax, flt attendants and ops comparable to an actual airline with a corporate, fractional or 135 operator is not another story.

But, I'm done with this subject here. It's a real shame that it became a subject at all.

 

[Intruder One]

Welcome to the world of airline hiring.You will never know what these guys want or looking for.Myself and friends included have been to several interviews and seen people hired that will blow your mind.Do not try to figure out what they want or what they are looking for......its all a crap shoot.If you want to give it a try go for it,after some of the stuff I've seen everyone has about the same chance.Butter up HR depatments they seem to hold alot of cards at most company's.Just remember alot of them do not have a aviation background so be careful,good or bad.

 

[English]

flx 757 is right on.

I have 121 PIC turbine experience (but not 500 hours due to being furloughed). I do have over 500 hours of PIC turbine in the 135/91 arena. I have gained much more useful experience as a captain for a fractional than I ever did as an airline captain. As a 121 captain, most decisions were pretty cut and dried - look in the manual, discuss with dispatch and/or maintenance, confer with crew when needed, and voila - ready-made decision. At my current job, there is no guidance at all except my own common sense and experience. As a 121 pilot, I was bumping around in the low levels in a turboprop using VORs. Now, I fly an airplane with the Collins Pro Line 21, Universal FMS, etc. up to FL450.

So, in my humble opinion, I think AirTran is missing the forest for the trees. I understand wanting to make the requirements more competitive to match the current pool of applicants. Uping the minimum requirements will allow fewer pilots to apply, reducing their workload. I'm all for that. But singling out 135, fractional and corporate pilots because of a perceived "less-value" in their experience is not cool.

 

[sleepy]

Given the current situation they can be as selective as they want to be. When things turn around for the majors, I'm sure that their mins will have to change to something lower. 500 hours of Part 121 PIC doesn't seem that restrictive to me. There must be thousands of current and furloughed regional and commuter airline pilots that meet this min.

 

[IAHERJ]

I don't think this decision was made on a whim. Unfortunately I believe a few corporate guys had some trouble in training and gave the rest of the corporate world a bad name. It is unfortunate for the many hard working fractional and corporate jet pilots who fly 50 hours a month on up and would have no trouble in training at Airtran. Having some good friends who fly corporate and want to work for Airtran, I can tell you that this disssapoints me as an Airtran pilot but I'm not the one scouring through several hundred resume's a week trying to figure out which corporate pilot will fit the airline mold quickly thus keeping our training cost down. They are busy over there in H.R. and according to a very senior check airman, this Fall will be a very busy one for the training department as we have upped our hiring #'s again. Airtran could very well hire 250-300 pilots in 2003 when it is all said and done. I'll believe that rumor when # 250 starts IOE but that "rumor" has been floating around lately.
I feel certain that exceptions will be made and if I was applying from the corporate world I would continue to update and stress in writing your monthly flight time totals indicating to the recruiters that you are current and committed to the process. Good luck to those interested in this job.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I would agree with IAHERJ

And I'm sure most AirTran guys would agree that when the recruiters receive information about a problem pilot new hire (whether in training or on the line, and both have happened recently) they seem to discriminate against the pilot group from which that pilot came from. I know it is very unfair, but it seems to be their practice. When a couple of Comair newhires quit class and went back to comair after the strike - they stopped hiring Comair pilots for quite a while. When problems started on line with 20,000-hours-PIC-in-heavy-jet-cargo guys - they stopped hiring them.
Same works in reverse - they LOVE CCAir and Comutair guys here.

And now I hear some one with corporate background is drawing attention to himself. It is very unfortunate for the rest of excellent pilots out there. And once again, I disagree with recruiters approach to solve those problems, but as many mentioned before, today they can choose what they want.

 

[AV8OR]

It's not the company...

.......it's the VP flight ops from what my intel says. Klaus Goersch is former Mesaba and for whatever reason has .

Here's his bio off the website.

"Klaus Goersch, vice president – flight operations, is responsible for the pilot group, dispatch and system operations control, and crew scheduling and planning at AirTran Airways.

Goersch most recently served as an FAA examiner and director of corporate training for Mesaba Aviation, Inc.

A native of Germany, Goersch began his pilot career at Lufthansa German Airlines. He also holds an airline transport pilot certificate and is qualified as captain and checkairman on the Boeing 717 for AirTran Airways."

As someone who has been persistent in my application to Airtran for the past couple of years, I am as dissapointed as anybody. Heck, I'm working for a major 121 cargo airline now but but have no 121 PIC there. I can tell you what though, our airline hires captains plain and simple. When I make captain there, I'll have no more 121PIC than I do now. What our HR knows is that a professional thinks like a captain no matter what seat he's in. I think the right interview should be able to determine fairly well whether a guy is captain material. Am I willing to give up my seniority number, excellent pay and retirement to go to Airtran, you bet. Am I willing to start over at a regional at $20K a year so that I can maybe get an interview at Airtran in a few years after I make captain. Don't think so.

So, I guess the bottom line is, Airtran has drawn their line and I've drawn mine. Am I as qualified as a regional jet captain? As far as Airtran is concerned, no I am not. Does it piss me off. Yeah, a little, because I feel like I have made it clear via my LORs, e-mails, updated resumes, going to Airinc seminars that I was willing to, my family was willing to make some big sacrifices, (sell the house, resign the number, big cut in pay, etc) and Airtran looks at my experience dilligence and dedication and says no thanks. So be it. To bad.

It reminds me of a comment I heard at an Airinc seminar back around the beginning of the airline hiring boom. A United pilot rep in his uniform looked at a guys resume who had been furloughed during the last airline bust of the early ninties. This guy had worked at Home Depot for a while or something like that for a while before he had gotten back in the saddle, you know so he could feed his family. This guy was very qualified, and this arrogant prick looks at the guy and says, "Well, while you are very qualified, at United we look for guys who don't have any breaks in their aviation carreer. We feel that it shows a real dedication to your profession."

The reason it comes to mind is because it was an arrogant statement and was a rediculous requirement. This new "min" from Klause is arrogant as well and so people are going to be offended.

One last thing. As far as the "Well, we have all these furloughed 121 pilots we can choose from." argument. It just seems to me that if I'm hiring people, I'd rather have a guy who is willing to leave a current job, with a pay cut, possible move, etc., because he wants to be at Airtran than someone who wants to be there because all of a sudden his job is gone.

Good luck to all who apply interview and get hired. Hope they don't change the "mins" on you once you get them. Thanks to all the Citrus pilots who have been very helpful to me in my pursuit. Not lookin good though.

Adios.

 

[trainerjet]

And I'm sure most AirTran guys would agree that when the recruiters receive information about a problem pilot new hire (whether in training or on the line, and both have happened recently) they seem to discriminate against the pilot group from which that pilot came from.

This whole discussion is very interesting, and has definitely caught my attention and my eyebrows are raised to their full extent. It seems like once I heard about a tall, skinny guy having trouble in training. Are they still considering tall, skinny guys at Air Tran, or are they off the list now, too? BIZARRE to say the least.

- they LOVE CCAir and Comutair guys here.

Then for the sake of the entire company, and especially the pilots, I hope those are good companies, since evidently Air Tran is destined to become a larger version of CCAir/Commutair.

.......it's the VP flight ops from what my intel says.

Then it pretty much IS the company, which is too bad.

Good luck to those interested in this job.

Revelations made in this thread by the Air Tran pilots regarding the company's recruitment thought process have made this job seem much less "interesting".

 

[FLB717]

FLX757 soory but what I wrote I feel are the facts of how any HR does bussiness. It may not be right but that is how it is. Ive got two real good friends who are not 121 PIC qualified now that I would love to get hired. As far as problems with certain groups in training yeah it a bitch. That is the reason when you interview and are in training, probation you smile and say"Glad to be Here" So your pals do not get a bad rep. I find it strange that some are complaining because thay may not be qualified for AAI any more. Well you couldnt apply to SWA or JBLU either. WE are not the hirer of anybody with a pulse. I was a Corporate guy and I left my good job to get payed crap at a 121 Regeonal so I could get hired by and Larger Airline. If you dont want to meet the quals ok, thats your choice I will not ever say you are wrong. Its the company chose and right to demand any qual they want. If a minimum is to stand on your head with a monkey balenced on your left foot that is the requirement. Personaly from the people Ive meet in the training side of things ex-major pilots are great, but the regeonal level guys have much better attitude. You can agree or not, it makes no difference to me.

 

[B190Captain]

FLX757 soory but what I wrote I feel are the facts of how any HR does bussiness. It may not be right but that is how it is. Ive got two real good friends who are not 121 PIC qualified now that I would love to get hired. As far as problems with certain groups in training yeah it a bitch. That is the reason when you interview and are in training, probation you smile and say"Glad to be Here" So your pals do not get a bad rep. I find it strange that some are complaining because thay may not be qualified for AAI any more. Well you couldnt apply to SWA or JBLU either. WE are not the hirer of anybody with a pulse. I was a Corporate guy and I left my good job to get payed crap at a 121 Regeonal so I could get hired by and Larger Airline. If you dont want to meet the quals ok, thats your choice I will not ever say you are wrong. Its the company chose and right to demand any qual they want. If a minimum is to stand on your head with a monkey balenced on your left foot that is the requirement. Personaly from the people Ive meet in the training side of things ex-major pilots are great, but the regeonal level guys have much better attitude. You can agree or not, it makes no difference to me.

You're kidding me right?

 

[likeitis]

.......it's the VP flight ops from what my intel says, Klaus Goersch.

I remember in 2000 Klaus saying he would have to question the decision making ability of someone who would stay at AirTran with an offer of employment at a Major. Now many of these people who took his advice don't meet the qualifications to return even though they would relinquish their senority numbers. I guess they aren't good enough anymore. What a piece of work. If you really want to know what this guy is about, ask some of the veteran Mesaba pilots. These guys/gals could tell you stories for days.

 

[flx757]

I find it strange that some are complaining because thay may not be qualified for AAI any more. Well you couldnt apply to SWA or JBLU either.

It's hard to respond to most of your post, since it's difficult to read, much less understand, but I can respond to your point above.

This is absolutely incorrect. A pilot with no 121 PIC time can most certainly apply to SWA and JBLU. In fact, both of these companies encourage applications from, and fill their classes with, pilots from a wide variety of backgrounds. Their minimums, which include either turbine or turbine PIC time, or in the case of jetBlue, 1000 hrs in aircraft over 20,000 MTOW can be attained in virtually any type of operation.

My training background consists of over twenty years as a line check airman, sim instructor, and sim check airman. I've seen good, bad and indifferent attitudes from pilots of every background. As such, it's pointless to debate which group of pilots have "much better attitude". In fact, this whole debate is pointless. AirTran is going to do what they are going to do, and it's obvious that we as pilots have no say in the matter. What's disappointing to me is that so few seem to care, or worse, don't have a clue about the implications of the current policy.