Airtran MEC voted no

[On Your Six]

I'll give you a hint. Late 1980's. Frank Lorenzo. Texas air Corp.
Non union Continental grows. Union Eastern shrinks. Easy.
Why have one large unhappy family when you can have 3/4 of the family happy and 1/4 unhappy. Especially when the 1/4 part of the family is going to be unhappy no matter what you do. Keep em separate and let them shrink away to nothing. Problem solved but the assets are still in place. Why do I believe this could happen? Because I was on the shrinking side and ultimately there wasn't a damn thing we could do about it. And we had a ton of money behind us and a lot smarter group of people at Eastern ALPA and ALPA National than you do and we still lost at every turn. That is the possibility that I see. Give Gary and Herb the finger at your own peril. Based on my experience at Eastern and my many great years here, I think you guys are f'ing crazy.

Just not gonna happen. Binding arbitration will rule over your heads for years. You can try to escape, but it won't help. SWAPA will probably give in when they notice that GK can't do anything about the binding award, and would have to be very careful dealing with the AT pilots. DP at USair can't do anything with USAPA because as soon as he does, and that inflicts harm on the AWA guys, he is open to a lawsuit. You need to proceed at your own peril too.



OYS

 

[Nindiri]

Like I said earlier, I might not be feeling so cocky if I were an AT line guy, and in fact, I might even be feeling a bit of apprehension, knowing how pissed Gary and Herb are right now. Read the account from an AT guy I pasted above. Laugh on, if you want, but it may get ugly.

You may be right; I've heard similar rumors. The word here is that Gary was so pissed, that after they unscrewed him from the ceiling, he called in the AT guys and confronted them. Ripped off his shirt and challenged PCL to a fight right on the spot, man to man. Said something about dispensing some tough LUV.

 

[humveedriver]

I'll give you a hint. Late 1980's. Frank Lorenzo. Texas air Corp.
Non union Continental grows. Union Eastern shrinks. Easy.
Why have one large unhappy family when you can have 3/4 of the family happy and 1/4 unhappy. Especially when the 1/4 part of the family is going to be unhappy no matter what you do. Keep em separate and let them shrink away to nothing. Problem solved but the assets are still in place. Why do I believe this could happen? Because I was on the shrinking side and ultimately there wasn't a damn thing we could do about it. And we had a ton of money behind us and a lot smarter group of people at Eastern ALPA and ALPA National than you do and we still lost at every turn. That is the possibility that I see. Give Gary and Herb the finger at your own peril. Based on my experience at Eastern and my many great years here, I think you guys are f'ing crazy.

You may be right. The irony of it. SWA the airline regarded as the one of the most labor friendly and who's motto is love, is being compared to Frank Lorenzo. Arguably the most dispised airline exec in history. This comparison is drawn from a SWA pilot who also lived the whole Lorenzo experience. I guess it's a Texas thing.

 

[freightdogfred]

I'll give you a hint. Late 1980's. Frank Lorenzo. Texas air Corp.
Non union Continental grows. Union Eastern shrinks. Easy.
Why have one large unhappy family when you can have 3/4 of the family happy and 1/4 unhappy. Especially when the 1/4 part of the family is going to be unhappy no matter what you do. Keep em separate and let them shrink away to nothing. Problem solved but the assets are still in place. Why do I believe this could happen? Because I was on the shrinking side and ultimately there wasn't a damn thing we could do about it. And we had a ton of money behind us and a lot smarter group of people at Eastern ALPA and ALPA National than you do and we still lost at every turn. That is the possibility that I see. Give Gary and Herb the finger at your own peril. Based on my experience at Eastern and my many great years here, I think you guys are f'ing crazy.

How are we unhappy? We're all very happy. Nobody gave anybody the finger, least of all the CEO and former CEO. Hell, we bought em each a case of booze. The list was not fair, and will be reworked and voted upon. Or decided by a neutral party. This was the agreement, no need to be mean spirited, or hateful.

 

[Sacha]

You may be right. The irony of it. SWA the airline regarded as the one of the most labor friendly and who's motto is love, is being compared to Frank Lorenzo. Arguably the most dispised airline exec in history. This comparison is drawn from a SWA pilot who also lived the whole Lorenzo experience. I guess it's a Texas thing.

It is a very valid comparison. Listen, everyone on the outside see's Herb as fun loving hard-drinking guy which he is, but ask any of our early Swapa guys about negotiating with Herb. Do not threaten his good will or his airline. He will take you down. Herb loves the airline. It's his life. Did you ever ask yourself how the most heavily unionized airline in the country goes almost 40 years without a strike? And is profitable every year except the first couple I believe?( a brief walkout for a few days by mx early on)

Now take Lorenzo. An introverted,people hating, union hating jerk who only cared about cash flow. Couldn't care less about employees even his scab non union ones. They were just a means to an end. Didn't care about customers either.

Two guys. One is a Leader. The other is not. One loves his airline and his employees and his customers. The other does not. One has always had a profitable, well respected airline by both wall street and customers and employees. The other one never came close. So who would you rather go up to and give him the finger to his company and his face and expect a favorable outcome? Having worked for both I can tell you I wouldn't ever think of doing that to Herb or Gary because they almost always win and will do what ever it takes to continue winning. Lorenzo isn't in the business any more because he got kicked out. He lost. So would SWA, herb and Gary do whatever it takes to protect their airline. Yes. They will and I don't blame them. Many forget that the Airtran pilots hardball tactics set the tone for not just the pilot group, but for all of the other employee groups. For Gary and Herb to reward those tactics just sets them up for bigger problems down the road.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

According to our MC, SWAPA would not budge on the list and our guys walked out of negotiations. They were heading home as GK called them in to see if there is anything could be done to fix it. They respectfully agreed to try. He proposed his protections and restrictions. However our MC kept referencing to the bad list. GK looked at SWAPA. They moved a few numbers and said it was final. GK tried to make things work for both parties. Our MC felt that in a standstill with SWAPA and with GK's good efforts this would be the absolute best that could ever be negotiated at the table.

The last thing our MEC knew about the status of negotiations was that the MC walked out and was on the way home. The "emergency" meeting with GK was not communicated to MEC until after the fact due to timing and the nature of talks. The MC was cornered into agreeing to the proposal with no attorneys present, or MEC approval. (rest assured that will never be allowed again)

This started a disconnect between MC and MEC. Pilots never gave a bird to GK, in fact the opposite, we appreciate his effort to fix the list with protections.

It took MEC longer than SWAPA to vote, because while SL9 provided SWAPA with necessary adjustments to their CBA, the equivalent of SL9 still had to be drafted and approved by legal on our side, for our CBA along with other transitional documents that SWAPA didn't have to have to vote.

AirTran pilots were outraged with SWAPA's refusal to negotiate a fair list. The list is what this thing was about. The list you offered, not GK. He wasn't just helping us, he was helping you, because he knows you'll get crushed in arbitration. Now he can't say that he didn't try.

Don't tell me GK is mad at us... He knows the whole story, not just the propaganda SWAPA put out for you to cover up how THEY caused you to go to arbitration.

 

[Music]

So who would you rather go up to and give him the finger to his company and his face and expect a favorable outcome?

I understand the emotion, but not the rational. No one gave anyone the 'finger' guys. At least I don't see it that way, maybe I'm wrong. As I see it, all that happened was that an agreement was not approved, that's all. This happens in business all the time, even within SW (frequently). Heck, just read the "play by play" of the AirTran purchase from when it began between GK and BF. There were many offers on the table by GK and BF (both ways) that were declined. Like I said, I may be wrong but I personally don't believe that GK would have rose to the position that he currently holds if he allowed his decisions to be ruled by emotions.

 

[redflyer65]

Don't tell me GK is mad at us... .

You guys can keep spinning this anyway that you'd like, but it's a fact that Gary was a little more than upset the way ALPA handled the AIP and how the end game was a big NO vote. The facts are the facts, time to move on.

 

[Lear70]

According to our MC, SWAPA would not budge on the list and our guys walked out of negotiations. They were heading home as GK called them in to see if there is anything could be done to fix it. They respectfully agreed to try. He proposed his protections and restrictions. However our MC kept referencing to the bad list. GK looked at SWAPA. They moved a few numbers and said it was final. GK tried to make things work for both parties. Our MC felt that in a standstill with SWAPA and with GK's good efforts this would be the absolute best that could ever be negotiated at the table.

The last thing our MEC knew about the status of negotiations was that the MC walked out and was on the way home. The "emergency" meeting with GK was not communicated to MEC until after the fact due to timing and the nature of talks. The MC was cornered into agreeing to the proposal with no attorneys present, or MEC approval. (rest assured that will never be allowed again)

This started a disconnect between MC and MEC. Pilots never gave a bird to GK, in fact the opposite, we appreciate his effort to fix the list with protections.

It took MEC longer than SWAPA to vote, because while SL9 provided SWAPA with necessary adjustments to their CBA, the equivalent of SL9 still had to be drafted and approved by legal on our side, for our CBA along with other transitional documents that SWAPA didn't have to have to vote.

AirTran pilots were outraged with SWAPA's refusal to negotiate a fair list. The list is what this thing was about. The list you offered, not GK. He wasn't just helping us, he was helping you, because he knows you'll get crushed in arbitration. Now he can't say that he didn't try.

Don't tell me GK is mad at us... He knows the whole story, not just the propaganda SWAPA put out for you to cover up how THEY caused you to go to arbitration.

Whoa, whoa, wait a second there, man, this is the FlightInfo venting hour. You can't go letting a little thing like THE TRUTH get in the way of some people blowing off steam.

Really though, you're message is more than likely falling on deaf ears, that's why I haven't posted much the last 36 hours. Just stepping back, working on the stuff I mentioned to you guys on our internal board, and not getting caught up in the tit-for-tat, and I'm proud of the AirTran responses that have, for the most part, been calm, rational posts in the face of the hostility emanating from a few SWA pilots (if, indeed, that's who they are). I think your approach is much more indicative of the "Southwest culture" of treating EVERYONE by "The Golden Rule" than other posts that we're seeing. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

I know we're all concerned; I am too. The minute the vote results came out I had this mixed feeling of "Thank God that didn't pass" and "Holy crap, it didn't pass, now what???", but I've seen more pilots engaged in the process with this than at any other time since I've been here, disagreeing with each other sometimes, vehemently even, but still treating each other with respect (at least no one told JC at the meeting to take his point of order and shove it up his a** like last time).

Maybe I have TOO much faith in GK, but I'm betting that he forces both sides back to the table at mediation next week, despite how irritated everyone is right now, and pushes them to find a middle ground. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, maybe it's not as financially-focused on our pilots and gives some SWA pilots some of the short-term pie ($$$), I don't have the "solution", but we need to come to some type of middle ground, and the hostility being displayed by some people here doesn't help.

Or maybe that's the posters' intent? Purposefully drive it to arbitration and pray to God it's bad enough to make GK call the whole thing off? Sometimes I wish this board wasn't anonymous; people would actually have to own up to the things they say... but then it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining (and that's ALL it's good for - entertainment - not worth getting your blood pressure up over).

Ya'll fly safe now. :beer:

 

[jonjuan]

You may be right; I've heard similar rumors. The word here is that Gary was so pissed, that after they unscrewed him from the ceiling, he called in the AT guys and confronted them. Ripped off his shirt and challenged PCL to a fight right on the spot, man to man. Said something about dispensing some tough LUV.

Sweet-I luvs me some midget wrestling. Almost as good as female midget jello wrestling.