Airtran MEC voted no

[Tripower455]

Yes, they definitely promised a staple, or near staple. SWA pilots have made that clear on this board.

Why did SWAPA make such a reckless promise?

SWAPA never promised us a staple, in fact, they didn't even try to get one.

 

[redflyer65]

Yes, they definitely promised a staple, or near staple. SWA pilots have made that clear on this board.

Why did SWAPA make such a reckless promise?

Where did they see that? I've kept myself pretty informed on this stuff and I haven't seen or heard any of it. As a matter of fact they said that a staple wouldn't happen. There goal was no SWAPA pilot harmed, and that was basically meant to compensate for the younger AAI pilots with regard to upgrade.

The disconnect with the SW pilots came in the way the AIP looked. The SWAPA guys really didn't telegraph anything about how this proposal would be structured. That's it.

RF

 

[AlbieF15]

I'm completely on the sidelines on this whole issue, but with some friends as both places as I listen here is what I hear:

1. Airtran pilots in general do not believe the gain in pay and benefits offset the drop in relative seniority

2. SWA pilots feel that the pay bump and chance to be in a better culture more than
offsets any seniority loss

3. Airtran pilots believe they won't do "much if any worse..." in an arbitration

4. SWA pilots believe the CEO may not integrate the carrier as quickly as the Airtran guys think will happen, if at all, and do not think arbitration will hurt them.

5. If the arbitration list isn't good, SWA pilots believe the company will simply keep AirTran as a separate entity verses risking upsetting the current labor climate.

Guys--am I missing anything?

Outside looking in, what I see is a bunch of SWA pilots who are convinced their CEO won't "sell them out" and accept a merger if it penalizes too many of the SWA faithful. The argument I keep hearing is "dad isn't going to like this..." and "dad won't let this happen..."

I have zero idea what will happen, and I sure wish all of you the best of luck on the backside of this. But it sure seems to me every SWA guy saying "it ain't gonna happen..." is betting GK is going to do all he can to keep his pilots happy. The million dollar question is will he? In 1988, the old FedEx Flight Crew Handbook indicated if FedEx bought another company ALL those pilots would be stapled. When the 1989 Flying Tigers purchase/merger occurred, FedEx merged the group with an arbitrator by the name of Nicolau. (Yes...the same guy...) FedEx pilots whined, complained, sued, and eventually even unionized a few years after the merger, something many original Purple pilots said would never happen. After losing faith that Fred Smith "had their backs...", a union suddenly didn't seem so bad.

I have no idea what GK will do, but if you REALLY want to see bitterness, watch what happens if GK breaks the faith with his own team. The wrath SWA has towards any outsiders will spread to not only outsiders but some of their own management. If I were a SWAPA leader, I'd be reminding management daily they've got one shot to "do the right thing...".

Can't understand anyone's complaint with ALPA, its the Airtran MEC and their pilots that are making the decisions here. ALPA has nothing to gain poking SWAPA. In fact, considering the success Lee Moak's ALPA MEC at Delta had with their merger with NWA, I'd be working hard to emulate what they did (buy labor peace with extra money for EVERYONE).

Garry Kelly is the key to this whole thing. I hope he is as loyal to you guys as you are to him. Time is going to tell....

 

[redflyer65]

Well stated Albie, and right on point. I'll add..

Mr Kelly is most likely weighing his options not only regarding this pilot integration, but looking down the road to every other work group here. This is just the tip of the spear with regards to the rest of the labor groups. To be honest, it sets the tone. And the tone doesn't look very good at this point.

RF

 

[Nindiri]

Where did they see that? I've kept myself pretty informed on this stuff and I haven't seen or heard any of it. As a matter of fact they said that a staple wouldn't happen. There goal was no SWAPA pilot harmed, and that was basically meant to compensate for the younger AAI pilots with regard to upgrade.

The disconnect with the SW pilots came in the way the AIP looked. The SWAPA guys really didn't telegraph anything about how this proposal would be structured. That's it.

RF

Yes, they definitely promised a staple or near staple. SWA pilots on here like Willie Nelson, Bravodude, the guy with the Einstein avatar whatever his name was, and others have confirmed numerous times here that their friends and connections in SWAPA have assured them of a staple. And they've made it clear here that they expect this promise to be kept; just a day ago, Bravodude promised to burn the house down if he didn't get his way.

This is not a good situation for SWAPA, or for anyone else involved.

 

[canyonblue]

Can't understand anyone's complaint with ALPA....

Albie, first off, nice post. Second, as a former ALPA member who had no problem with the Union, I find ALPA to be a hated entity at SWA. And this is not a new revelation, it has been that way here forever. If you want an idea of just how much the majority of pilots dislike ALPA, just insert HITLER in place of ALPA in any sentence.

 

[scoreboardII]

This is just the tip of the spear with regards to the rest of the labor groups. To be honest, it sets the tone. And the tone doesn't look very good at this point.

RF

And the pilots at SWA are the "easy ones" to get a deal from, if this fails in a negotiated settlement, the rest of the unions burn this deal to the ground.

Albie, spot on, GK has the ball, lets see what the QB does with it.

 

[GuppyWN]

Of course I'm not on MEC or MC. Only your leaders fire off statements in the heat of moment that later will be used against them. Like SC's e-mail that has 2 such points.
1. We were gonna buy their seniority.
2. We will abide by Process Agreement.

1. Your MC already agreed that your seniority had a monetary value.
2. Mediation is scheduled for next month.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

Yes, they definitely promised a staple or near staple. SWA pilots on here like Willie Nelson, Bravodude, the guy with the Einstein avatar whatever his name was, and others have confirmed numerous times here that their friends and connections in SWAPA have assured them of a staple. And they've made it clear here that they expect this promise to be kept; just a day ago, Bravodude promised to burn the house down if he didn't get his way.

This is not a good situation for SWAPA, or for anyone else involved.

Just so we are clear. I am fine with a staple.

Gup

 

[Fly4$]

I think the question should be asked, how will SWA and AT. React. Why would you assume only SWA pilots will have a response ?


I believe the answer lies ,of what alpa has put out to the AT pilots.[/QUOTE]

99% of us would accept the ruling and happily move on. Still not sure what SWAPA is so upset about. I wasn't under the impression the negotiated deal was very popular. I think both sides may come out better in arbitration or perhaps mediation. It will be simpler, and decided by a neutral party.

 

[Nindiri]

Just so we are clear. I am fine with a staple.

Gup

Okay, we will staple you.

 

[redflyer65]

Looks like the company has informed SWAPA that all monetary offers are off the table, and they have no plans to intervene during mediation. Email sent out tonight.

RF

 

[Flycatcher99]

Yes, they definitely promised a staple or near staple. SWA pilots on here like Willie Nelson, Bravodude, the guy with the Einstein avatar whatever his name was, and others have confirmed numerous times here that their friends and connections in SWAPA have assured them of a staple. And they've made it clear here that they expect this promise to be kept; just a day ago, Bravodude promised to burn the house down if he didn't get his way.

This is not a good situation for SWAPA, or for anyone else involved.

Please find one of the posts where one of our guys quotes swapa as promising a staple.

It's simply not true. Keep claiming that if you want, but it doesn't make it any more true. There were indeed many of our guys who wanted it, but swapa absolutely kept a lid on any speculation or strategy. Unlike some other union folk.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Why? It will just be thrown back in our face again as "You're lying."

The simple FACT is, in front of about 250 or so line pilots, the ENTIRE MEC, including ALL status reps, Sec/Treas from each domicile, the Chairman, Vice-Chairman, MEC Sec/Treas, Neg Comm Chair, Merger Committee, ALPA EVP, and 2 Senior ALPA Attorneys, the MEC explained what happened in Dallas the weekend the AIP was agreed to and went into the EXACT detail that Fly-By-Wire posted above that has been called "a lie".

NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THE ROOM SAID THAT ACCOUNT WASN'T ACCURATE. NOT ONE. Make no mistake, when one of the reps said the one thing in that account that wasn't agreed with (who called who on Saturday morning), they got into a BIG tit-for-tat, but on the IMPORTANT POINTS ABOVE, not one single person among the people in our leadership who were FOR the agreement spoke up and said that account was incorrect.

So our entire leadership, including the MC who brought this thing and believed in it, agree with the account Fly-By-Wire posted of how it happened. You may not like that. SWAPA may not like it. No one's asking you to. But to insist that it's a "lie" is really not your position to make.

So basically, what you want us to believe is that some of your union guys got up, told the whole story as they "saw" it, and then since not one of the other union cronies corrected the story to make it less favorable from the air tran perspective, then naturally the story was the complete unadulterated truth.

Uh huh.

 

[On Your Six]

Looks like the company has informed SWAPA that all monetary offers are off the table, and they have no plans to intervene during mediation. Email sent out tonight.

RF

The Process Agreement still has arbitration as the next step after mediation I believe. It could go that route, and if SWA or SWAPA do not follow the binding award, there will be even more cracks in that famous culture of yours as time goes by. Eventually equal pay will happen, and it could turn into a war of attrition, which may not turn out well for all sides. Godspeed!


OYS

 

[chase]

Deleted

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Looks like the company has informed SWAPA that all monetary offers are off the table, and they have no plans to intervene during mediation. Email sent out tonight.

RF

They can't. Mediation is a very formal setting between two parties.

 

[Nindiri]

Please find one of the posts where one of our guys quotes swapa as promising a staple.

It's simply not true. Keep claiming that if you want, but it doesn't make it any more true. There were indeed many of our guys who wanted it, but swapa absolutely kept a lid on any speculation or strategy. Unlike some other union folk.

I already pointed out several SWA pilots confirming it on this board. And, of course, it was all over the SWA pilots' board.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised at SWAPA making such a tactical blunder and painting themselves into this corner. They had to know they couldn't deliver on such a promise, so why did they make it?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

2. Mediation is scheduled for next month.

Gup

Still don't see it ha? SC promised to follow the Process Agreement which says that arbitrator's ruling will be final and binding....ooops.

 

[FDJ2]

The Process Agreement still has arbitration as the next step after mediation I believe. It could go that route, and if SWA or SWAPA do not follow the binding award, there will be even more cracks in that famous culture of yours as time goes by. Eventually equal pay will happen, and it could turn into a war of attrition, which may not turn out well for all sides. Godspeed!


OYS

I agree that equal pay will ultimately happen, it's just a matter of time.

This process will be very stressful on those involved, but ultimately, absent a negotiated list, a third part neutral will review all the facts and make the call if the respective merger committees can't. It wont be the first time or the last this has happen.