AirTran MEC Chair message.

[Lear70]

You're saying Gary Kelly didn't say clearly on multiple occasions that he wanted an agreed on list w/o the pilots, as leaders of all employees, fighting for every scrap to the length of their process agreement?

He expected us as the highest paid group to show leadership.

Then there is the reality that this purchase simply becomes less profitable if groups go fighting tooth and nail in an extended arbi.

I can show you where he said all these things and they were public and often.

No, that's not what I said. You're talking about two separate things.

1. He said he WANTED a negotiated list.

2. He SIGNED a Process Agreement that said we could go to arbitration and that the resultant list would be integrated.

I'll put it in perspective: I WANT Date of Hire integration. I *SIGNED* an SIA (by my vote) that says I'm now 300 from the bottom of the SWA F/O list. What I want and the agreements I sign are two different things. One is a desire, the other is a legal commitment. Which one do you think should be followed?

As far as me "rebel rousing", rebel rousing is inciting people to do something. I'm not, and never have.

I'm simply responding to you and others saying it was unreasonable for us to have pushed for arbitration when we had a signed agreement that said we could and that list would be implemented.

If people will stop bringing it up as if we were crazy to try to follow the Process Agreement and I'll stop talking about it.

 

[waveflyer]

I'd say Lear, that what you and I want may be inconsequential- what GK wants might be a bit more important. Don't you think? The PA was signed to comply with Claire mccaskill, GK desired a settled list. And was clear about it.

And what would you have gained by going to arbi? You'd have drawn it out and end up with more bad feelings and roughly the same list.

I'd also bet he was surprised at the lack of loyalty after you guys magically got 30% pay raises you'd been fighting for. I know the ALPA spin machine wants credit, but seriously- is anyone dumb enough to give credit to alpa for that?
But I'd never speak for him.

And I'd love to stop bringing it up- stop sliding in the how you got "screwed" commentary and we won't have these convos.

 

[vixin]

They now have 1,742 pilots who won't ever forget that some people evidently make deals they have no intention of following through on.

Wow not 1700 more. There are over 6000 here that already knew this. With the exception of a few koolies. Funny how you said you had no idea the 717 would go away, then you ask and want to plan around it, then you blame it on SWA for double dog daring you. For someone who has been in the industry and is as astute as you. You should have known better. One thing is for sure you need a new hobby.

 

[Lear70]

I'd say Lear, that what you and I want may be inconsequential- what GK wants might be a bit more important. Don't you think? The PA was signed to comply with Claire mccaskill, GK desired a settled list. And was clear about it.
And what would you have gained by going to arbi? You'd have drawn it out and end up with more bad feelings and roughly the same list.
I'd love to stop bringing it up- stop sliding in the how you got "screwed" commentary and we won't have these convos.

I didn't say anything about we got screwed.

I responded to Rob's assertion that what I said about the 717 was incorrect.

I responded to Max about his idea of his life being the same or better with how this turned out and pointed out that not everyone fared so well.

I then responded to another poster who asked what happened and gave them a very calm, balanced explanation of what happened on the AirTran side of the house.

It wasn't until people started saying we were crazy to have not taken the first deal that I start explaining why, which unfortunately, includes the facts of the Process Agreement and the post-MEC SIA vote GK letter.

I'm not bashing anyone, I'm simply putting the facts out there when people act like we somehow should have "known" what was going to happen if we rejected SIA 1. The entire pilot group was stunned with that letter, as well as the MEC and the Merger Committee. You guys may have known, and in retrospect, even though it sounded like posturing, we should have listened to you.

Hind sight is always 20-20. Nothing to do now but move on down the road.

 

[Lear70]

Wow not 1700 more. There are over 6000 here that already knew this.

Wish we'd have gotten the memo...

Funny how you said you had no idea the 717 would go away, then you ask and want to plan around it, then you blame it on SWA for double dog daring you. For someone who has been in the industry and is as astute as you. You should have known better.

I don't even exactly know what you're inferring with that... "blamed it on SWA for double dog daring you."

We put all our eggs in one basket with the 717 because Southwest assured us that we were safe to do so.

And yes, I should have known better, that was why I discussed my discomfort with what was going on without the commitment in writing to keep the planes until a specific date. Discomfort was obviously my gut telling me something wasn't right.

Unfortunately, we had no leverage to get such a commitment and, in retrospect, I agree with the MC that we probably wouldn't have gotten it. There is little doubt in my mind that this is what they hoped they could do all along... they may not have known at that point that they could definitely accomplish it or with whom, but you're right, I should have seen it coming, even though they said all the right things to get us to sign the SIA and move on with integration.

One thing is for sure you need a new hobby.

LOL - thanks... I have a hobby, been working on my boat engine most of the day here at the house, just take breaks from the heat and see some of the stuff that got thrown at me on here.

I go days or even weeks sometimes without posting on here, but when people say stuff directly at me or say things about what happened during the process or about things moving forward that aren't true, I'm going to respond, just like everyone else does...

 

[waveflyer]

You're d*mn right I did. Hence the Few Good Men reference, you're channeling Lear. The first deal sucked. The second deal still sucks, it just sucks less for seniority than the first one, but sucks worse for pay. Even the Merger Committee and the rest of the NC during both road shows and voting said the same thing. "The deal sucks"

"This deal sucks and is ridiculous".. .

You and I both know that's bullsh*t. Take away the threat of non-integration and you don't have an 86% vote for that SIA, not a chance in hell. We'd be starting to implement the arbitrator's decision about now if the Process Agreement had been followed and integration hadn't been threatened.

Shoulda woulda coulda, we've been all through that, but don't take your anger out on me, when I'm not the one who threatened your job and took everything the Process Agreement was designed to do and said "we don't have to do that".

Thats^^^ basically you saying you got screwed-
And I'm tired of hearing it. I think I got screwed on this seniority list too- I don't repeat that nearly as often as you and PCL and other AT pilots do. Then wrap it up in pretend high-road language. It comes across more than disingenuous Lear.

 

[Lear70]

Thats^^^ basically you saying you got screwed-
And I'm tired of hearing it. I think I got screwed on this seniority list too- I don't repeat that nearly as often as you and PCL and other AT pilots do. Then wrap it up in pretend high-road language. It comes across more than disingenuous Lear.

LOL - I guess I was channeling... I do like that movie quite a bit.

Granted, I can see how my post comes across that way, but you didn't quote the post I was responding to, which was actually one of OUR pilots giving me hell for pushing for a vote against the first one. Here's the quote:

Lear is full of poop. He pushed hard to get the 7 to 1 vote. He has no room to complain, criticize, or talk. He lobbied hard and got exactly what he wanted. He then went to Dallas and got us this deal. He only ignored 86 percent of us.

If you re-read what I typed, the anger at the SIA is pointed at HIM, not Southwest pilots. I pushed for a No vote because the deal sucked and I thought we could go to arbitration. You can't find any of us that don't think the first deal sucked (it just sucked less than the second one from a financial standpoint), just as there are few Southwest pilots outside of the ones who will upgrade into our planes as they come across who like this deal, either.

Me kvetching about a bad deal to one of our own guys who is giving me hell about it shouldn't be a cause to irritate you, but I could see how it could be misconstrued.

And it's not "pretend" high road language. I jumpseat on you guys every week and I treat every one of you with respect, friendliness, and no malice or bitterness whatsoever. I'm trying to move on and, as I've said before, if people would quit bashing it out here, it would make it easier for everyone.

 

[waveflyer]

Look, then at some point you'll have to acknowledge that a good 3000 + pilots on our end feel like they got screwed as well.

How is it we both got screwed?

 

[RobZerbe]

Lear,

With all due respect, you seem bent on waging a war of words on a largely anonymous forum. A venue which is full of people who misrepresent their backgrounds and motives. I disagree with many of your assertions and characterizations but I see no benefit in arguing those points here.

Feel free to give me a call if you would like to discuss Side Letter 8, the Process Agreement, and the critical importance for a negotiator to understand his alternatives.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I got an idea.

How about the WN guys stop giving thier opinions on how lucky we are and we'll stop giving our opinions on how bad we got screwed, because that's all they are, just opinions based on each other's versions of the facts

But, if we do that, then we'll have nothing to read and we'll be trolling the Delta TA thread and adding to the "I told you so's" in the aftermath. I really don't know which is worse other than the fact that it's a pretty safe bet no FL or WN pilot will ever fly with a Delta pilot.