AirTran Expects Profit every Quarter this year

[Clyde Frog]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Without a strike, or at least the very REAL threat of one, including the funds to accomplish it, the will of the pilot group to accomplish it, the preparation of union leadership for it, then finally, when ready, being released into self-help and the clock starting, management will do NOTHING towards getting a REAL contract with REAL improvements and not trading away 2 things we need for every 1 thing we get back..

Damn right!

 

[maxblast72]

So twepilot and Scarlet what do you suggest? What ideas do you have? What is your involvement? The NPA is broken and has become ineffective. The herd sees that and is tired of it! ALPA is not perfect, but I believe it has the chance to be better than what we have currently.

Don't expect any answers from TWEpilot. TWEpilot doesn't mind status quo. He works 14 or 15 days a month, pulls in $150K/year, and enjoys another $16K/year in B-fund contributions. Why rock the boat for the junior guys making $70-80/K year for the next 5-7 years? TWE got his 6 figure W-2 by year 3. He doesn't understand what is wrong. Those junior guys help keep Airtran nonfuel CASM the best in the industry. B-scale only worked at American until they hired so many pilots that the B-scale guys outnumbered the A-scale guys. TWEpilot is part of the A-scale crowd while the rest of us are on the B-scale. There is a limited number of A-scale guys at Airtran that even give a crap about the B-scale guys.

The junior guys voted down TA2, the junior guys recalled our senior former union president (and associated NC chair), and the junior guys are voting in ALPA. TWEpilot hasn't figured it out yet. The B-scale is going to go away in contract 2009, or we will not get a new contract period.

 

[twepilot]

yet another effing ************************* to scared to put their name to a post.

RV

 

[twepilot]

also, just because I don't foam at the mouth, don't interpret that as my being satisfied with things. I'm not.

RV

 

[maxblast72]

I am not asking you to foam at the mouth, but don't talk down to the junior guys who are looking for change with your comment about herd mentality. I have done my homework with alot of reading about airline history, been at several ALPA Q&A sessions and seen some of the tough questions asked (from TWA guys for example), and made up my own mind. I don't think ALPA is the cure all. But I do think as Airtran heads into their most profitable year since 2003 that ALPA gives our pilot group the best chance of getting a fair contract for everyone (especially the B-scalers).

By the way, I am not even a B-scaler. I was lucky enough to hire on in April 2004 and get a 2.5 yr upgrade. Stuck on reserve for a few years, but I don't mind living in Smyrna, GA. But I understand the disappointment of the guys hired 8 months behind me who are stuck at $75K-85K a year for the next 2-4 years and guys hired 2 years behind me that have 8-10 more years as FO. Those guys deserve to come off the B-scale before year 5. Are they going to get over $100/hr in one contract? Probably not, but they deserve alot more than to be stuck at $70-75/hr for the next 8-10 years.

RB (4/29/04 newhire)

 

[twepilot]

msg rec'd.. Herd mentality is a reality in a lot of things just my opinion. Surely, I didn't mean to talk down to anyone...Sorry if I came off that way.

RV

 

[T3700]

Pay raise for our most senior Captains in TA 2 = $22/hour. Pay raise for a 5th year F/O $5/hour. Some of them still wonder why the junior guys voted no. The NPA tried to throw the junior guys under the bus in 2007 and have never regained the confidence of more than half of the membership.

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Pay raise for our most senior Captains in TA 2 = $22/hour. Pay raise for a 5th year F/O $5/hour. Some of them still wonder why the junior guys voted no. The NPA tried to throw the junior guys under the bus in 2007 and have never regained the confidence of more than half of the membership.

As one of the most junior FOs on property, I hope some attention will be paid to FO rates in negotiations. I know captains want what's theirs also. I don't blame them for that. However, many of us took a huge pay cut coming to FL with the promise of a quick upgrade. That upgrade has gone from 4 years (as referrenced in the interview) to what? 10+ years?

I was largely skeptical of a quick upgrade given the economy and fuel prices when I was hired so I am not surprised that the upgrade time has increased dramatically. However, it would be nice to bring the FO rates into the same ball park as other majors.

 

[zman]

NPA= no loss of lic. insurance or aero-medical benefits.

ALPA= loss of lic. insurance and aero-medical benefits.

Even if negotiating is the same song and dance, we still get more outta ALPA. Thats why I know why many people are voting ALPA. At least were getting something then nothing. Also if anyone says oh ALPA will sell you out via scope. They should read TA2, see how management tried to get the pilots to give up scope. It was the worst scope clause that any Major airline would have ratified.

 

[Clyde Frog]

TWEpilot is part of the A-scale crowd while the rest of us are on the B-scale. There is a limited number of A-scale guys at Airtran that even give a crap about the B-scale guys.

.

Looking at the industry from a historical standpoint, I would argue that senior guys are B-scale pilots and junior guys are D-scale.

Someone has to fight to restore what was once lucrative career, why not us? Didn't Bob say we're going to be profitable each quarter this year? Time to raise the bar and quit settling for mediocrity!

 

[Max Powers]

Looking at the industry from a historical standpoint, I would argue that senior guys are B-scale pilots and junior guys are D-scale.

Someone has to fight to restore what was once lucrative career, why not us? Didn't Bob say we're going to be profitable each quarter this year? Time to raise the bar and quit settling for mediocrity!

THAT's GD right!!!!!!!!

 

[airline#5]

No More F'ing B Scale. The Senior H'mo's Will Lose This Fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[maxblast72]

It doesn't need to be a fight. We do need to come together after the ALPA whichever way it turns out. The junior guys voice has been heard and I think the majority now realize that FO's % raise will need to be much higher than the CA % since upgrades times are heading towards 8-10 years.

The senior guys did a good job laying the groundwork for a strong company in the late 90's/early 2000's and have seen a large increase in pay between 2001 and 2005. This contract will focus on bringing the junior guys some rewards for the success of our company similar to what the senior guys saw from 2001 to 2005.

 

[CatfishVT9]

NPA= no loss of lic. insurance or aero-medical benefits.

ALPA= loss of lic. insurance and aero-medical benefits.

Even if negotiating is the same song and dance, we still get more outta ALPA. Thats why I know why many people are voting ALPA. At least were getting something then nothing. Also if anyone says oh ALPA will sell you out via scope. They should read TA2, see how management tried to get the pilots to give up scope. It was the worst scope clause that any Major airline would have ratified.

That's a big problem with this pilot group. I had several conversations where guys were complaining about what TA2 said and I told them they were wrong, it wasn't in there, now go read it yourself.

 

[Lear70]

That's a big problem with this pilot group. I had several conversations where guys were complaining about what TA2 said and I told them they were wrong, it wasn't in there, now go read it yourself.

Not sure what you mean.

There were a LOT of Scope give-backs in T.A. 2. Yes, I still have my copy, printed as well, with the negotiating notes from the NC when we were in D.C.

The most important change would have allowed 90-seat Q-400 turboprops on property, regardless of our staffing level. You know... the ones that Frontier has been using to grow instead of the A319's or even RJ's..

#1 clue should have been that, when we finally said, "OK, you can have changes to Scope... if you guarantee, in writing, a no-furlough clause to every single pilot on property IF those new planes are brought on property OR guarantee, in writing, that the pilots here will be flying them at 717 or better wages after a 180-day 'trial period' to guage their cost-effectiveness, OR guarantee, in writing, that the second you furlough ONE pilot or park or sell ONE 717 or 737, ALL extra CRJ/ERJ/Q400 flying gets parked with them, overnight". They absolutely refused to put ANY of those protections in place.

The point isn't that we tried to give up more stuff to get Scope back to where it is now, but to point out that the company, under NO circumstances, was willing to change that Scope language that was in T.A. 2 back to what we have now.

There's a message in there... a very important one at that: "The Scope changes were more important to management than any other, single thing in the T.A." Question you have to ask yourself is... Why?

I personally believe it's because the Q-400 is the perfect replacement to about 50% of our 717 fleet because of the stage lengths we fly. 90-minute or less legs are up to 30% less CASM in a Q-400 than the 717.

NOT ONE FU*KING SEAT reduction in Scope in ANY future T.A. Period. The end. Spread the word.

 

[Colonel Savage]

"I personally believe it's because the Q-400 is the perfect replacement to about 50% of our 717 fleet because of the stage lengths we fly. 90-minute or less legs are up to 30% less CASM in a Q-400 than the 717."

What is the CASM of the 717 vs the 737-700?

 

[Lear70]

The 717 CASM is more expensive than the 737-700 because of the additional seats on the 737, killer lease rate AAI negotiated, and the same (roughly) ancilliary costs (crew costs, ground services, etc).

Not certain if the maintenance costs less or not - I've heard that it does from MX guys, but haven't seen the numbers...

The 717 is an orphan airplane and the question isn't "If" it will go away but, rather, "When". If they could find a cheap alternative, it would be sooner than later, which is why I believe their Scope plans combined with E-190 rates in the T.A. are likely what they have in mind.

Outsource 25 Q-400's, replace all the 717's with a combination of those Q-400's and E-190's, and the result would be an overall reduction in crew costs to the company in the 10-15% range and a hefty paycut for every 717 pilot on property.

And yes, the ability for that to happen was in both T.A. 1 and 2.

 

[maxblast72]

Ownership/lease cost of the 717 is alot lower than the 737. Fuel CASM on the 737 is obviously alot lower than the 717 due to 20 more seats for the same total fuel burn. At low fuel prices the 717 is probably close to the 737. At higher fuel prices, the 737 has a bigger cost advanatage.

I don't believe the company has ever came out and broke down the CASM for each fleet type.

 

[Lear70]

Ownership/lease cost of the 717 is alot lower than the 737. Fuel CASM on the 737 is obviously alot lower than the 717 due to 20 more seats for the same total fuel burn. At low fuel prices the 717 is probably close to the 737. At higher fuel prices, the 737 has a bigger cost advanatage.

I don't believe the company has ever came out and broke down the CASM for each fleet type.

They haven't (or I was told they hadn't when we were headed to D.C.). I was told the 717 was lower when I was up there 2 summers ago, for the reasons I stated, but that was 2nd hand info, although I had no reason to doubt it, considering the source...

 

[Colonel Savage]

"Outsource 25 Q-400's, replace all the 717's with a combination of those Q-400's and E-190's, and the result would be an overall reduction in crew costs to the company in the 10-15% range and a hefty paycut for every 717 pilot on property."

It looks like the biggest problem is how to get out of the 717's, since they are unique and have limited capacity. I get from your post that the 190's would be flown by AAI mainline pilots, but at a lower payrate than the 737?