AirTran Expects Profit every Quarter this year

[Lear70]

That was the company's original stance, they came out with a "Small Jet" payscale that was lower than jetBlue's blended rates, and was a huge cut from 717/737 pay rates.

On T.A. 2, they removed those SJ pay rates, but put a new paragraph that was a change from existing book. Existing book makes the company negotiate for a new airframe's pay rate (not yet in the book) by putting it in a "category", the lowest category of which is the 717/737-700 pay rates.

T.A. 2 gutted that statement and opened up the rate to be negotiated, not just into a category, but a whole new rate set, based on what other airlines, including regionals, are paying for those airframes. In all likelihood, that would result in a 15-20% reduction from 717 rates to fly an E-190.

The company knows what they're doing, and everything they do points to bringing SJ's to AAI if they can find a way to do it cheaper.

 

[atldc9]

5 years until the original 717's come off lease. They are planning for it now. Scope is #1. Just ask Midwest.

 

[Clyde Frog]

No More F'ing B Scale. The Senior H'mo's Will Lose This Fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a senior guy who's doing all he can to make sure all sides are equally represented...

Go phcuk yourself #5!

 

[jimcav]

As a senior guy who's doing all he can to make sure all sides are equally represented...

Go phcuk yourself #5!

Well said my man.

 

[maxblast72]

As a senior guy who's doing all he can to make sure all sides are equally represented...

Go phcuk yourself #5!

I hear stories all the time from my FO's about how some Captains sit their and talk about their all their toys, sports cars, second homes, etc or about how they are having money problems or about how the FOs turning down TA2 has cost them tens of thousands of dollars. I don't care if guys want to have 10 cars or have got themselves into a bind financially, but have some respect to the guy next making sometimes as little as 35% as you are before you start spilling your whole life story. In an effort to build some unity, a $160,000/year CA talking about his trouble affording his second home doesn't build any unity with a $60,000/year FO.

I am not saying all senior Captains do this, but those that do end up portraying senior guys in a bad light.

 

[CatfishVT9]

Lear,

My point was that some of the complaints I heard about TA2 were about issues that were in TA1. I just can't understand why it's not important enough for everyone to read every line in it.

 

[Lear70]

As a senior guy who's doing all he can to make sure all sides are equally represented...

Go phcuk yourself #5!

Yup, we don't need more splintering of the pilot group, and there's plenty of Captains who spoke up against both T.A. 1 and 2, many of them on the grounds of F/O pay and Scope alone.

There's money in the pot for everyone, point your aggravation at the people who WROTE T.A.'s 1 and 2 and tried to sell you on continuing that big difference in pay.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

My point was that some of the complaints I heard about TA2 were about issues that were in TA1. I just can't understand why it's not important enough for everyone to read every line in it.

I defnitely can agree with that point, there's absolutely NO excuse for someone not to have read both documents before voting and rely upon 2nd hand information, even if a lot of it came from me, I'm certainly not infallible.

I don't care if it DID cost you $20 bucks to print it up at Kinkos because our union knew that it was such a turd that they didn't WANT to give out paper copies. It's your contract, go spend the $20 bucks for crying out loud so you can read and cross-reference to understand the whole thing.

I doubt we'll ever see that happen again... People are waking up, and I'm glad to see it happening.

 

[airline#5]

As a senior guy who's doing all he can to make sure all sides are equally represented...

Go phcuk yourself #5!

If your doing that your not an H'MO, just senior.

I'll go phcuk myself now...tired of AI doin it 4 me.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Yup, we don't need more splintering of the pilot group, and there's plenty of Captains who spoke up against both T.A. 1 and 2, many of them on the grounds of F/O pay and Scope alone.

There's money in the pot for everyone, point your aggravation at the people who WROTE T.A.'s 1 and 2 and tried to sell you on continuing that big difference in pay.

Agreed,

We need more unity. I don't know how we can do it, but we have to do it in order to go to the negotiating table and get what we want. We need a real legal department we can turn to.

Instead of an attitude of " It's Pat" from Saturday Night Live. "ooohaahhhh.....no...we can't dooo that", we need Samuel Jackson from "Pulp Fiction".

"What does the pilot group look like?"

"What?"

"Say what one more time M'Fer. I double dog dare you...What does the pilot group look like?"

"They wear uniforms"

"GO ON"

They fly the planes"

"DO THEY LOOK LIKE A BE-OTCH?"

"What?"
Bam!...right in the leg

 

[Clyde Frog]

If your doing that your not an H'MO, just senior.

I'll go phcuk myself now...tired of AI doin it 4 me.

Yeah, I'm senior.

I also spent quite a few occasions in Orlando while they threatned my job, all because of my strong union stance.

The go F- yourself was a little strong, but don't dare lump all senior guys together.

I've voted no on every TA while at AT, including our current contract (that passed by 87%) because of poor FO pay and reserve issues. BTW, I was a line holding captain in the summer of 2001 when it came out.

I know the selfish a-holes you're talking about, but throwing bombs at them isn't going to help.

Us vs. them will get everyone nowhere.

 

[Clyde Frog]

we need Samuel Jackson from "Pulp Fiction".

"What does the pilot group look like?"

"What?"

"Say what one more time M'Fer. I double dog dare you...What does the pilot group look like?"

"They wear uniforms"

"GO ON"

They fly the planes"

"DO THEY LOOK LIKE A BE-OTCH?"

"What?"
Bam!...right in the leg

What aint no country I ever heard of, do they speak English in What?

 

[Lear70]

Say what again...

Say... what... again...

I dare you... I double dare you...

 

[Clyde Frog]

I don't need you to tell me how phcuking good my coffee is, okay? I'm the one who buys it. I know how good it is. When Bonnie goes shopping she buys Siht. I buy the gourmet expensive stuff because when I drink it I want to taste it. But you know what's on my mind right now? It AIN'T the coffee in my kitchen, it's the dead n----r in my garage.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Sorry - back to the subject

Lear,
You are absolutely right about reading these things for yourself. This is my first airline gig. I read those TAs - almost got sucked in by the pay rates. Thankfully, we had folks such as yourself pointing out important concessions that were in there. Your notes made me read the TA again and compare to current book. I'm no expert at the language but I came to the conclusion that your analysis was right on.
I still remember conversations with some of "those Captains" lamenting the fact that TA2 did not pass. I would try to convince them about the scope give backs. They just didn't get it.

The next TA needs to start at current book and strengthen scope. Look at how Midwest got away with calling the Republic deal a code share. We need to make sure we are protected against such a scam. I checked our current contract a while back and thought that the way it reads - it does protect us against this kinda scam from management. Do you concur on that interpretation?

We also need pay and medical improvements!

Bob expects a profit every quarter. Fantastic! Now SHOW ME THE MONEY!

 

[Lear70]

Ski, you're exactly right about Scope in the next T.A., and good for you for taking the time to really READ the T.A.

I'm hoping the new MEC will let me and a couple other guys who are good at "finding loopholes" go over the PROPOSALS going to/from Orlando so we can fix things BEFORE they're T.A.'d... easier to fix it in advance than to go back in afterwards, as we found out.

To answer your question, no, there's one big loophole that currently exists in Section 1. If the holding company (AirTan Holdings) decided to start another carrier that they wholly- or partially-owned, and do a "code share" with us, thus selling them as AirTran flights, they could potentially get away with something very similar.

Pinnacle/Colgan is going through something very similar as well. Pinnacle HOLDINGS bought Colgan, and is operating it completely separately, growing Colgan with Q-400's while stagnating growth at Pinnacle. Lawsuits are being won by the union at Pinnacle that are proving the company back-doored scope, but the company keeps appealing, so YEARS go by while they continue to operate this way.

Right now, the only thing keeping management from pulling this stunt is that 1, it's not cost-effective and 2, they don't want to spend money for anything extra right now. It does, however, pose a risk when they have extra cash on hand and see an opportunity to jump into a market (Frontier) and grow it with money they made by OUR work...

We need to bind the HOLDING COMPANY in the next T.A. and include examples of Scope violations such as these. No easy task, management knows what's at stake...

Good luck to all of us!

 

[ualdriver]

"I personally believe it's because the Q-400 is the perfect replacement to about 50% of our 717 fleet because of the stage lengths we fly. 90-minute or less legs are up to 30% less CASM in a Q-400 than the 717."

What is the CASM of the 717 vs the 737-700?

According to your airline's Form 41 data, '07 Q3 operating costs per hour: (sorry, don't have anything more current with me!)

B717 $2919/hr.
B737 $2635/hr.

And for your reference, Horizon Q400

Q400 $2058/hr.

Obviously, it's hard to make an apple to apples comparison with all the variables in play as mentioned previously. However, note that the Q400 rate is based upon a stage length a few hundred miles SHORTER than the B717 which was based upon a stage length a few hundred miles less than the B737. If the B717/B737 stage length was adjusted downward toward the Q400, the numbers would favor the Q400 even more.

 

[maxblast72]

According to your airline's Form 41 data, '07 Q3 operating costs per hour: (sorry, don't have anything more current with me!)

B717 $2919/hr.
B737 $2635/hr.

And for your reference, Horizon Q400

Q400 $2058/hr.

Obviously, it's hard to make an apple to apples comparison with all the variables in play as mentioned previously. However, note that the Q400 rate is based upon a stage length a few hundred miles SHORTER than the B717 which was based upon a stage length a few hundred miles less than the B737. If the B717/B737 stage length was adjusted downward toward the Q400, the numbers would favor the Q400 even more.

The 737 has twice as many seats as the Q400. On a CASM basis, the 737 is a much cheaper airplane to operate. The only questions are do the markets you fly into support that many seats or do you need more frequency (more flights per day with less seats per flight) to give travelers enough options.

 

[Lear70]

Do those numbers also include fuel costs? If accurate, which we don't know a year and a half later, break down to:

B717: $2,919 / hr divided by 117 seats = $24.95 per seat per hour.

B737: $2,635 / hr divided by 137 seats = $19.23 per seat per hour.

Q-400: $2,058 / hr divided by 90 seats = $22.87 per seat per hour.

Makes the Operating cost per seat cheaper for the Q400 than the 717, assuming the numbers from Horizon would be similar to AirTran's if they were on property with our cost structure and unknown pay rates.

Right now, the Cost for the Q400 would be a bit higher in all likelihood, as there's no way, with our current contract, that they could impose pay rates any lower than the 717 pay. If T.A.'s 1 or 2 had passed, it might be even lower than Horizon's pay, you never know.

I'm still not convinced those B717 numbers are accurate, the 717 maintenance costs are likely higher now, and we don't know if those were fuel-inclusive...

 

[zman]

Guys if you notice FLYBE in europe operates a mix fleet of 118 seat EMB-195's plus Q400's. There CEO actually said in an interview with ATWonline.com that the q400 was able to directly compete with easy jet and Ryanair. He stated that he was able to offer more frequency at less cost then Ryanair as well as Easyjet could offer. They were so pleased with the Q400 they were one of the airlines that put pressure for bombardier to actually make the 90-100 seat version of the airplane which will have greater range as well. Some speculate that it might be placed on a different type others say that it will remain the same type and be placed as the Q500. Ethier way you dont have to look that far to see someone like Continental that is growing with them. I think that Airtran's management would love to grow with Q400's in markets that not only the B-717 flies but other cities we dont even serve yet.