AirTran contract, must haves

[-9Capt]

Anyone with any experience of managing diverse work-groups within one company or organization cannot show favoritism to one group.

Then he should have said nothing. His comment was designed to be insulting and has been used as the company mantra across the negotiating table since mediation began. We asked for a reduction in health care costs, more vacation time, etc and they reply "pilots don't deserve any more than the lav truck driver because you're not special".

You asked, "Do you really need to have Kolski say you are special?, no I don't, but I don't like being insulted either.

You said, "Obviously, We (pilots) have the biggest responsiblity and a mistake on our part will have the biggest negative impact on the company, but our contribution to the success of AirTran isn't any more "special" than a gate agent, baggage handler, scheduler, mx personnal etc doing their job. Using this logic we're no more "special" than a tow bar, the company can't move airplanes without pilots, and they can't move airplanes without tow bars. Maybe the tow bar should single-engine taxi, call cleaning/catering, ask for shortcuts and divert around that thunderstorm.

"Go back two years and read your post to see if they have changed. Were you really this unhappy here 2 years ago? Was your contract that bad then? Or during this negotiation process has you attitude towards management changed?" It was about 2 years ago when the company changed it's tactics. I was in a similar state of mind 6 years ago when the first failed T/A was reached. No, our contract wasn't that bad back then, but it's been steadily eroded ever since.

A lot of you weren't here around Sept 11. We gave concessions almost immediately. Joe himself was in the crew lounge pitching for concessions. We gave in. We took a pay cut and ceased B-fund contributions until the company turned 2 profitable quarters. Less than 4 months later, management gave themselves the largest executive bonuses in the history of the airline. When the NPA found out they threatened to go to the press. The company immediately ended the concessions and put a positive spin on the story making themselves look like the good guys.

 

[-9Capt]

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[freightdogfred]

SunkingQuote:
Originally Posted by Frequency
They (SWA) also made $587 Million last year, Airtran made around $30 Million. Thats a big difference. Your not quite there yet.

I think you missed -9CAPT's point.
Which was airlines don't fail solely because of pilot compensation. If that was the case then vanguard and the likes should have made it because of low paid pilots. SWA pays the pilot group well and still succeeds in the industry.


I think you've both missed the point.

You state:
We, the pilots, on the other hand have absolutely no idea how to behave during contract negotiations, absolutely none. We have guys picking up all the opentime they can, captains flying as FO's, pilots flying aircraft with known mechanical defects to mx bases before writing them up, asking ATC for shortcuts, calling for catering/cleaning/gates, not using the APU, the list goes on. We can't even get a quarter of the pilot group to wear a stupid friggin' union pin or put tag their bag for Christ sake!!

But I was hired for a professional pilot position. It is my job to fly as safely, efficiently, and professionally as possible. I knew the contract and pay when I got hired, and I was glad to be hired. Have you ever tried to figure out why you are in a minority (of bag taggers), but we still carried the presidential elections to keep the negotiation equitible? Well maybe there are people that want representation as a professional group with reasonable demands, and not a group that thinks turning off your logo light is an effective negotiating technique. You list goes on, of normally expected duties of professional pilots doing there job, and you want to just sit there and do nothing but the minimal amount of work.

IF flying just my line is the minimal amount of work, sign me up too. There's no war zone in ATL , Iceman, (hoo-rah) so if ya wanna ta fly x-tra to help out go fer it.

If you look back at SWA pre 9/11 they weren't the highest paid group, they were the ones working their butts off, doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do. What did it get them, well they are now the industry leader in pay and QOL. Their company takes care of them and they do the same for the company.

They are the industry leader because of forward-looking management and insightful leadership, plain and simple. The pilots, while hard working, didn't design their business model, implement their fuel hedges, select one fleet type, select their bases/routes/compensation. Stick with me Vern, I hope it makes a little more sense now.

If you think AirTran can compete without a lower CASM then the legacies I think you are mistaken. It doesn't mean we need to be the lowest paid, but please don't repeat history and ask for United plus 1.

If maintaining a lower CASM means taking it out of the pilots arse, perhaps Airtran's model needs a little tooling. Didn't their exec's just take a 8 million bonus a year or two ago? How did that affect their CASM? Oh, you were probably still honking on the Government titty then and didn't hear about that one.

I know, you are probably saying what a koolaide drinking A-hole. But you are wrong. I'm just a guy that has enough self respect and integrity not to short change the company I work for. You sound proud of your accomplishments of not taking short-cuts to save fuel, calling for catering, and as you so proudly stated "the list goes on."

Don't short change your company. You pull 100% every day, until the time comes to withold your services. Displaying a bag tag and supporting your union lets the company know you will do just that. It's the exec's job to try and get you to work for the absolute minimum, it's your union's job to try and get you the most they can. Is there any part of this you don't understand?

If you want professional pilots following your lead maybe you need to have something worth following.

More pay, QOL, Bennies??? Reread the above post.Not everyone has your military retirement and bennies.

I agree, when the company violates the contract, it needs to be seriously and firmly addressed through our union representatives.

Agreed. That's why supporting the union is important. (Bag tag's, etc)


AirTran won't fail solely because of pilot pay. It will fail if you get the following of people want who are willing to only do the minimum amount of work. The long term effect on the customer is something you can't change once we get a contract. What it will take to change a $15 million annual profit into a loss, is just what your work ethics could do.

Airtran will fail if management does not realize their people are assets, not liabilities. Happy employees are productive, plain and simple. Take a management class sometime.

Do I want improved QOL and pay ---YES. Do I think doing the minimum amount of work is the way to get it---NO. Why is it so hard for people to understand SWA pilots just didn't one day say we want more $ and the company just gave it to them. It took years and ALL the pilots working harder than the next guy and making the company profitable.

Well using this theory, Mesa will rule the world soon, cause their pilots work like sled dogs, and the pay ain't quite up to Southwest's level. I guess you think they should take a pay cut to lower their CASM?

You guys post on here so much, I thinked you've actually started to convince yourself you are making sense. The work rules are in place for the same reason most of the rule exist today. 99% of the rules are made to cover up the lack of work of 1% of the workforce. Hope you sleep good at night using your emergency sick time for SAP3, because you get it back twice as fast. There is that 1% that will probably cost the rest of us our emergency sick time. Ask yourself that integrity question and keep wondering why more professional guys aren't following your lead.

Ya can lead a mule to water, but ya can't make him drink.

Sorry for the rant

Rant it was. Look up the word "Union" in the dictionary.

 

[-9Capt]

If you think AirTran can compete without a lower CASM then the legacies I think you are mistaken. It doesn't mean we need to be the lowest paid, but please don't repeat history and ask for United plus 1.

When I started here our costs were over 13 cents a mile and pilots made half what we do now. It just goes back to what I said earlier, If pilot costs were the determining factor, a lot of airlines would still be in business.

 

[Lear70]

I agree with all of your contract requirements plus a 3 year cost of living payback (not just a signing bonus).

Either way you slice it, they need to pay back the loss of COLA for the time this has been dragged out. They can call it back-pay, signing bonus, whatever, but it needs to get paid. Otherwise you just worked for 2 years with no raise (your longevity raise became a COLA raise and ONLY kept you at the same relative spending level of your income).

Let's just hope our NC has had the ability to get these things into the TA. Something tells me this is going to be a very weak TA for the pilots.

If it is, vote NO. They did it last contract, no reason it can't be done again.

For some reason the company wants a TA before May (maybe MEI shareholder meeting, our shareholder meeting, etc). Who knows? The fact is the "ball is in our court" and now is the time to slam dunk it. We've waited for two years for the company to have some incentive to have meaningful negotiations and now it appears the time has come.

BINGO!

Absolutely NO reason not to use the advantage we now have.

Do you really think the NPA negotiating guys would TA a scheduling section that "gave up a ton of stuff"? Why would they do that?
I think there are just a whole bunch of rumors going around amongst the pilot group right now. Seems like it might be a real good time to just keep saying to yourself "I'll believe it when I see it in writing".

Well-said.

Having an open discussion about our personal needs and wants in a new contract is great. Getting bent around the axle over it is pointless. :beer:

A great example of another reason not to follow your lead. There are alot of people here keep referring to his comment. Have you ever been incharge of a large group of employees? Can you publically say that one group of employees is more important to the success of a company than another? That's like saying your daughter is more special than your son.

Yes, and Yes, and No, give me a f'ing break. The son/daugher comparison is ludicrous. This isn't an emotional argument, it's a business argument in cost and relative responsibility.

Lav cleaners can be replaced without $50,000+ in training costs. Aircraft cleaners won't kill 117/137 people if they decide to dope up before coming to work.

Not to say that we're any more special than the mechanics or anyone else in a safety-sensitive position, but retaining these skilled professionals in these positions is PARAMOUNT to a company's long-term survival. Compensating them at an industry-AVERAGE level is one of the 3 components that ensures that retention.

I agree that some mistakes have been made on both sides, but I don't really care, either. I'm not interested in playing the blame game, I'm interested in seeing a T.A. worth a long-term career being sent to us.

 

[Lifter]

Quote:

But I was hired for a professional pilot position. It is my job to fly as safely, efficiently, ...edited to fit...there job, and you want to just sit there and do nothing but the minimal amount of work.

IF flying just my line is the minimal amount of work, sign me up too. There's no war zone in ATL , Iceman, (hoo-rah) so if ya wanna ta fly x-tra to help out go fer it.

I can see you giving advise to your 16 year old son at his first job. Son, make sure you go to work today and just do the minimal amount of work to not get fired. Don't try to do anymore, management will just expect it out of you in the future. Don't worried if you lose your job, you'll qualify for social programs to live off the backs of those dumb-dumbs who work hard at there jobs. We'll elect Hiliary and we'll get more programs to help us out. Did you vote for non-competive tryouts for your kids high school sports? Wouldn't want anyone to have to work hard to get recognized and of course your son should be able to play even if he can't do better then the worse guy on the team.

If you look back at SWA pre 9/11 they weren't the highest paid group, they were ... editied to fit... Their company takes care of them and they do the same for the company.

They are the industry leader because of forward-looking management and insightful leadership, plain and simple. The pilots, while hard working, didn't design their business model, implement their fuel hedges, select one fleet type, select their bases/routes/compensation. Stick with me Vern, I hope it makes a little more sense now.

And their business model would have been successful if the work groups said, hey thats to many routes on my line today, I only want to fly 3 turns not 5, because the rest of the industry isn't working that hard why should I have to work that hard. You are making something, but I'm not sure sense is how I'd descrbe it. You've worked in this industry along time and are not used to competing for promotion or success. I know you can't describe yourself as an "A-type" personality, so which type are you?

If you think AirTran can compete without a lower CASM then the legacies I think you are mistaken. It doesn't mean we need to be the lowest paid, but please don't repeat history and ask for United plus 1.

If maintaining a lower CASM means taking it out of the pilots arse, perhaps Airtran's model needs a little tooling. Didn't their exec's just take a 8 million bonus a year or two ago? How did that affect their CASM? Oh, you were probably still honking on the Government titty then and didn't hear about that one.

I haven't said our lower CASM should come on the backs of our pilots. I said doing the minimal amount of work isn't the way to prove to management to negotiate in good faith. I also am not happy with the way management is willing to burn our good relationship during this negotiation.

I was wondering how long it would take someone to use the "military background" out. When you can't win the argument or are embarrassed about your position, always resort to name calling is a good technique---NOT. Sounds like the advise to the guy that commented to the Atlanta Journal about our management in the beginning of negotiations and see where that got us.

I know, you are probably saying what a koolaide drinking A-hole. But you are wrong. I'm just a ... edited... and as you so proudly stated "the list goes on."

Don't short change your company. You pull 100% every day, until the time comes to withold your services.
Agree, I think we are saying the same thing. Do your job the best you can before, during, and after negotiations.

Displaying a bag tag and supporting your union lets the company know you will do just that. It's the exec's job to try and get you to work for the absolute minimum, it's your union's job to try and get you the most they can.

Agree again, but its hard to support your union when the vocal group of the union is acting childish. Saying, we'll get even with them and not turn our logo light on is childish in my mind.

Is there any part of this you don't understand?

Is there any part of acting professional, even during negotiations, should be the starting point of our actions.


If you want professional pilots following your lead maybe you need to have something worth following.

More pay, QOL, Bennies??? Reread the above post.Not everyone has your military retirement and bennies.

I guess you are right, I don't deserve anything for those 21 years of service. You don't hear the military guys saying we should ask for a pay rasie over lower insurance payments. Even though if we get it changed that way it's actually a pay cut for us. If we give up pay raises for lower insurance cost for the group, it actually is a pay cot for us military guys. But it isn't all about me, but that might be hard for you to understand.

I agree, when the company violates the contract, it needs to be seriously and firmly addressed through our union representatives.

Agreed. That's why supporting the union is important. (Bag tag's, etc)

Agreed, supporting you union is important, hence my presidential vote. Do you actually think Coach, Floy, Klause, SK or even JL have even discussed how many guys have bag tags? I see it now, JL well I think this should be are next strategic move for the company and by the way, I saw 20 guys with NPA tags today, we need to give in on the negotiation. Wake up.

AirTran won't fail solely because of pilot pay. It will fail if you get the following ...edited..a $15 million annual profit into a loss, is just what your work ethics could do.

Airtran will fail if management does not realize their people are assets, not liabilities. Happy employees are productive, plain and simple. Take a management class sometime.

If you want to compare classes we can, but I would rather compare experience. It isn't hard to find guys here who have either worked with me or for me. Ask them about my leadership style and the importance I placed on people and teamwork. But you never reward people on the team doing the minimal amount of work. Those people always make it harder on the group ad make the group work harder overall. Try reading my posts without a predetermined view.



Do I want improved QOL and pay ---YES. Do I think doing the minimum amount of work is the way to get it---NO. Why is it so hard for people to understand... edited...the pilots working harder than the next guy and making the company profitable.

Well using this theory, Mesa will rule the world soon, cause their pilots work like sled dogs, and the pay ain't quite up to Southwest's level. I guess you think they should take a pay cut to lower their CASM?

OK, why don't you school me on your successes from doing the least amount of work to just get bye. Again reread my post. I do want improved QOL and PAY, but I don't think you negotiate improvements by saying see, look how much extra we can cost you and how many passengers we have forced elsewhere, now give us a better contract and we'll start doing a good job again.

You guys post on here so much, I thinked you've actually started to convince yourself you are making sense. The work rules are in place for the ...edited...integrity question and keep wondering why more professional guys aren't following your lead.

Ya can lead a mule to water, but ya can't make him drink.

Yes you can, stick his head underwater, take two bricks and crush his balls with them while his head is underwater. Trust me, he'll drink. It might only be one drink, but it will be a big one.


Sorry for the rant

Rant it was. Look up the word "Union" in the dictionary.

is a continuous association of wage-earners for the purpose of maintaining or improving the conditions of their employment."[1]

Look up the work "Professional" in the dictionary.

Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace - they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities. A profession is an occupation that requires extensive training and the study and mastery of specialized knowledge, and usually has a professional association, ethical code and process of certification or licensing.


Have a good day.

 

[crashpad]

Why all the debate? Just grab the new Frontier contract and copy it.

 

[pilotyip]

Remember if pilots get more, everyone else, FA's, Mechs, Customer Service will all want more. But they will only have to raise fares to offset the demands on the bottom line. It is all so simple, so growth slows down a little, so it takes 5 yrs to make Capt instead of 3. But there will be that emense feeling of satisfaction that comes with winning a big TA, I am sure the UAL, DAL, etc. piltos felt the same way 7 or so years ago.

 

[TV9Driver]

NO ONE at AAI is asking for a "UAL + 1%" type of contract, so don't even try to make that comparison.

Look, we need to get an immediate 7-10% raise across the board to offset 2+ years of COL that we haven't been compensated for. We need to cut medical insurance by at least 25%. We need to clean up the language in the contract so there are no more "we are now interpreting this differently" BS. We also need to boost FO pay, especially in the year 3 - 7 years and extend it to a 12 year scale.

More than likely we are going to have to give up the reserve pay system. We are the only airline in the world that gets paid reserve like this, and it was an obvious mistake in the last contract.

I don't think that's asking for the moon. I don't think we should accept any less either.

 

[mnboyev]

Dammit....the ice went out at the cabin...no more ice fishin... fellas it won't be long and the crappies will be swarming..!!! (and a TA will be hot off the press)

A lot of good points made..good discourse indeed!
I will not vote in favor of a TA that extends my day past 12hrs..does not include a daily minimum (no average!) ..some real improvement in FO rates... and hot towels and lemonade served while checking in for my overnite!! oh..and require a separate ck in line for the dam fa's...lord!!

Happy Easter ...Wear your pins and bag tags !!