Airtran and their "500 PIC part 121" requirement?

[135fr8r]

Hey Yip,


As far as insurance goes maybe you should call Geico.

When I was 135, we were trained to specific crewmember seat duties, checklist standars, etc...... What's your point.

Oh yea, unlike military, we didn't stay in the pattern all day long shooting landings.

 

[Yahtzee]

Airtran's requirement and SWA's requirement for PIC time (500 & 1000) are purely, as said before, a process to eliminate thousands more resume's from showing up at headquarters. The sad thing is, they are eliminating pilots that are already qualified in the 737NG, like myself for instance.

I did upgrade at my former employer, a regional 121 company, and accumulated 400 PIC Turbine. I was then offered another job, which I accepted flying the 737NG. So, here I am with over 1000 hours in the right seat of the 73, yet I'm "not qualified" to fly the same airplane for SWA...or Airtran. If these airlines think that training from scratch a BE 1900 Capt. versus throwing me in the seat to do what I already do everyday with ease, then it's their loss. Not saying that I DESERVE the job, I will say that I should be at least able to be in the running. Unfortunatly, my resume would go straight to the shredder. It simply doesn't make any sense......I know that's the way it goes, I'm just throwing out an example of poor hiring practice.

DBCooper,

I know this doesn't help make you feel any better considering your time in the right seat of a 737, but like others have written before me, companies have placed a threshold of X to be considered and X+Y to be competitive for an interview considering the shear number of pilots to choose from in today's environment.

In the case of SWA, they require 1000 hours Turbine PIC as a min to apply. To them 1000 hours Turbine PIC is more important than having X hours in 737. Logging time in the right seat proves one is competent at your duties in the right seat and gives you the opportunity to watch, learn and grow before moving to the left seat. Logging PIC (whether in a B-1900, a C-5 or a 737) proves the ability to upgrade. Logging 1000 hours Turbine PIC gives the applicant time to see many situations (low fuel, bad weather, EPs, etc.) while in command, making decisions and honing skills (both flying and people) regarding those situations. Logging 1000 Turbine PIC is the min to apply at SWA, but it doesn't necessarily make one competitive to get an interview.

And while one may think SWA has poor hiring practices simply because they are not eligible to apply or they get turned down after an interview, you have to admit the company has been profitable for a long time (and hopefully will remain so for many years to come.) Sure some great people get turned down during an interview, and sure some folks get through the process, and others wonder "How did s/he get here?", but overall the SWA formula works for them.

SWA provides the same training to a a former BE-1900 pilot that they provide to a guy with 5000 hours in a 737. For them they don't care what you flew as long as you have 1000 Turbine PIC and meet their other mins. SWA interviews based on qualifications but hire for very different reasons. Being the most qualified and experienced pilot in the world may get you the interview, but it has little if anything to do with getting your foot in the door (and keeping it there.)

You may not agree with my comments, but I want to offer a different perspective. I hope you get the extra 600 hours Turbine PIC you need in the near future if you really want to be a part of SWA. And I hope you don't take my ramblings as a lecture as they weren't meant that way, but rather a way to clear up why they might do things differently. Trust me...it's not to keep DBCooper down.

Best Wishes in your endeavors.

Yahtz

 

[Yahtzee]

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Yahtz

 

[Mooseflyer]

.....

 

[Mooseflyer]

Oh yea, unlike military, we didn't stay in the pattern all day long shooting landings.

You're right - rarely do we military types go very far from the pattern. Maybe 12,000-13,000 miles, TOPS.

 

[BSkin]

Hey Yip,


As far as insurance goes maybe you should call Geico.

When I was 135, we were trained to specific crewmember seat duties, checklist standars, etc...... What's your point.

Oh yea, unlike military, we didn't stay in the pattern all day long shooting landings.

You are nothing but a moron with that type of thinking!!!

 

[pilotyip]

They are hiring prospective Captains

This did not start with 500 121 PIC until after 9-11 when they became one of the only jobs in town. They could set any standards they wanted. Before 9-11 3000 TT would get you an interview, now I understand 5000 TT barely gets your foot in the door. Back to the 135 flight time, there are tons of very good 135 operators out there and there pilots are excellent pilots. However there are lots of 135 operators on the other end of the scale. 135 does not produce the uniform product like 121 and the miltary. Why do they do it, because they can.

 

[Bandit60]

The training I did there (FSI and SImuflite) was for 135 PIC training . . . . FSI and Simuflite may have copies of your company's Ops Specs and checklists, but they do not try to build scenarios on your ride that require decisions based upon your company Ops Specs or SOP's.

Under 61 or 142, there are different ways to do the same thing. At most airlines, there is only one way- their way. If they say you will use "level change" instead of "altitude intervention" you better be using "level change", or it's wrong.

Also, unless things have really changed, FSI wasn't doing too much with the FMS boxes- while some of the "boxwork" I had to do on my 737NG ride would make your head spin.

Nobody is saying that 135 flying is easier . . . or harder. It's just a different set of "gotcha's", and I agree that we may not be getting the best suited pilots by sticking to 121 PIC's, but to say that a person who got a type in a new plane at FSI is a better candidate- well, that's about as silly as me saying that the best 135 guy would be a 121 Capt. . . . .

I think FSI has changed as far as training with the "box". I don't know what type of aircraft you flew at FSI but the ones I fly require a great knowledge of the box. We shoot every approach with the box (expect ILS wish is required to fly by loc frequency). Most of our performace numbers are generated by the box. I think the the "box" was 75% of the training.

 

[BRA]

"If these airlines think that training from scratch a BE 1900 Capt. versus throwing me in the seat to do what I already do everyday with ease, then it's their loss."

As a 1900 captain....i always find myself at the bottom of the industry in these threads. Can't we use J-31 drivers or something as the bottom for the next few months to keep me sane?

 

[DBCOOPER]

Yahtzee,

You make points that I understand fully. I know that 1,000 PIC is a good thing to have. As far as being able to upgrade - dealing with bad weather, fuel, making sure alternates are legal, etc....I did that on a regular occasion as a Captain back in the Northeast. I also know that although I didn't stay long enough to accumulate the full 1,000, I could have flown a few months longer there....it wouldn't have made a bit of difference experience wise in the end. Hell, where I work now I should be logging PIC half the time anyway....watching some of these "Captains" I fly with I know a guy that started working for SWA recently. He had PIC 121 on a BE-1900, but only flying in Florida...mainly VFR, and no exposure to anything else. Don't get me wrong here, I'm very happy for him, but I just don't see why he should have a chance to work for SWA and someone like me doesn't. Like many others, I've flown all over the U.S., Canada, Trans-Pacific, and South Pacific. I've shown that I am capable of upgrading at a 121 Regional in the Northeast quadrant (probably one of the most challenging sectors to fly in) ---- I'm not trying to toot my own horn, b/c there are many with more qualifications than me i know, but the fact that I simply can not even apply is ludicrous. I'm just hoping that the upgrade at my current employer comes sometime soon, so that I can get my free 737 type .....and finish off the PIC requirement that way.

Gotta play the game in this industry I know, no matter how rediculous it can be sometimes. Happy Thanksgiving to all.........

 

[DBCOOPER]

Hey Bra-

I'm with you buddy!! Good point!! I will no longer use BE-1900 aircraft as example, but definatly the J-31. I flew both, and the Beach is by far a nicer 19 seat turboprop!! The Jetstream is harder to fly though, that bucket of bolts was the most unstable airplane ever built I do believe.

 

[capt_zman]

YIP,

That's the whole point. 5000 hours doesn't get your foot in the door. 20000 hours for that matter doesn't get your foot in the door, unless you have 500 hours of 121 PIC and/or military time. Whether it began after 9/11 is irrelevant. It's in place today and it's wrong/unfair.

 

[kramden]

Speaking as a furloughed pilot who has been lucky enough to be hired at AirTran, let me say this...AirTran HAS hired pilots with less than 500 PIC turbine. I KNOW of at least one TWA and some USAir who fall into the category of "long-time" FO's with lost of 73 and/or 75/76 time who somehow found a way to get interviewed...and hired.

From what I have seen of AirTran's hiring process, they are still small enough for individual resumes to make it to the CP's desk in MCO where they ultimately decide who will interview. Bottom line...all of these guys had LOR from employees or met the AirTran HR people at a job fair or something.

Despite the PIC being listed as a "hard" requirement, it cannot be the case.

Many of these comments strike me as being rooted in ego. I left TWA for United in early 2000. When doing the UAL medical eval, I was in the waiting room with a separating F-16 guy from Luke AFB. When he asked where I currently worked (TWA), he went into a five minute tirade on how lame TWA was for not giving HIM an interview as he was overqualified etc. Then he finished by saying he wouldn't want to work there anyway and was glad to be at UAL where they appreciated his experience.

My gut tells me this: (now on my fourth airline job). If you really want to work at a particular company, make it happen. I'm at AirTran becauase I focused on it and I knew that was where I had the best shot at getting hired (I knew a lot of pilots there). Would I have liked to work at SWA or JetBlue? You bet? But I knew that my chances weren't good. (No 737 type, No A320 time, don't know anoybody at either company) EVERY company has their hiring process.

When I was first furoughed, no corporate operator would look at me because I wasn't "qualified and 135 current in ....." despite more than 2000 hours of Part 135 Citiation and King Air time in addition to my airline time. Fair enough.....and just move on.

Sorry for the rant...I rarely post.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Hey "capt"(spewed out like beer through my nose when I laugh too hard)_zman,

For someone who doesn't "give a hoot" about that 2nd rate airline, you sure have wasted a lot of people's time with your continual rants about how "unfair" their hiring minimums are.

No one really cares what you think. Least of all those at Air Tran. Go find another sand box to soil your diapers in.

 

[capt_zman]

Easy there big boy. Keep drinking your beer and coming up with really cool screen names and don't worry about me. I'll be just fine tough guy.

 

[Yahtzee]

DBCOOPER,

Changing the SWA application process so more people can apply may make those people happy that they've applied and increase the number of apps on file, but it would most likely not change anything else. Even with 1000 Hours Turbine PIC and a 737 type rating as of today, one is not competitive for an interview at SWA. It is widely speculated SWA has between 5000 to 8000 applications on file at this time, but according to all the latest rumors, the min number at this time to make one competitive for an interview is at least 1500 Turbine PIC and a 737 type.

And while the amount of Turbine PIC time one needs for an interview may go down as the number of interviews increased, SWA has determined the min threshold to be 1000. IMO SWA most likely doesn't want to take on more apps in the meantime when those folks aren't competitive in their eyes. Doing would give people false hope.

By your reasoning (that you should be able to apply to SWA with 400 hours PIC since you're current and qualified in a 737NG), every USAF Reserve KC-10 co-pilot fresh out of pilot training should be able to apply to FedEx just because they are current on a DC-10, whether they meet FedEx's mins are not. That would be great news for a handful of AF Reserve co-pilots (some with less than 100 hours PIC in anything), but the fact remains they don't meet FedEx's mins unless they have 1000 PIC, a four year degree from an accredited college, and FE Written among other things.

The guy who flew BE-1900s in Florida has a chance to fly with SWA because he meet SWA mins, got an interview and successfully made it through the interview. And I'm guessing that in/around Florida, he flew near/around a lot of Thunderstorms...so while the weather may have been VFR for takeoff and landing, but I'm betting he got bounced all over the place logging that PIC. I know the scariest flight I've ever had was in Florida at night around raging Thunderstorms, and I was nearly killed on a beautiful VFR day by a light twin, not talking or squawking while he blasted through Class C airspace completely oblivious to rules and other aircraft.

You're in a great place to get the type, it just depends on how long it will take you to upgrade to the left seat and start logging more PIC. Stay focused on the things you can impact...not the things you can't.

My apologies to the AirTran folks for posting SWA stuff on their thread.

Yahtz

 

[DBCOOPER]

Yahtzee,

Again, I see your point of view. To fulfill this Airtran thread, I am including my same views toward them as I do SWA.

It is amazing to me how things change so quickly. 4 years ago I was in the jumpseat of a dumpy old Airtran DC-9. I hit it off with the Capt. and F.O. and by the end of the flight the Capt. (also a checkairman and hiring board member) gave me his card and told me to call him later in the week to set me up with a job, not an interview, a job. At that time, my heart was set on Delta so I declined the offer from the Airtran Captain. This may have been the biggest mistake I ever made, looking back. At that time, I had around 1800 hours and nothing but right seat BE-1900 and JS-3200 time. Now I have around 4000 hours, a type rating and time as Captain in the JS-4100, and over 1000 hours in the 737NG. Now, I'm not "qualified" to work for them. I know, I know, I know.....the industry has changed, there are more pilots out there looking for jobs now, I understand all of that 100%. All I'm saying is that I don't understand why companies do not seem to realize that experience in the airplane they are hiring you into is not a good thing!! Keep the PIC requirement, that is a good thing as well....but how about something like....Mins= 1000 PIC and/or 1000 hours in type......take them both into account.

FedEx is screwing themselves by eliminating those KC-10 guys/gals. It's the same thing. I know a girl that was hired there not long ago, she barely made it through....she required alot of "extra attention" and she is still having trouble. Yes, she had 1500 hours of PIC, but she had always been a very weak pilot. I'll bet FedEx would have saved themselves alot of money/headaches by hiring someone that was already current and qualified in the airplane. It just doesn't make sense, that's all. Not saying it isn't fair here, It just doesn't make sense.

On Florida flying, I did it for a year. Thunderstorms, yes. That was fun, but flying in the Northeast was much more challenging in my opinion. I thought it was bad in Florida until I was shooting an approach into Buffalo one night during a strong snow storm, fog, strong gusty winds, with embedded thunderstorms in the area..flying an autopilotless Junkstream 32 with barely enough cockpit lighting to see the approach plate. (what a p.o.s. that was).....I think that diversity in flying experience is important. Once you fly in Florida, for instance, after a year or so you can handle the challenges that come with it with your eyes closed. "Ok, do you want to go left or right around the cells today?"

I don't want to sound bitter, I just think that airlines should give everyone a chance (within reason) on a case by case basis. UAL did it, Delta did it, Northwest did it, UsAirways did it.......I think those guys realized that there are plenty of Capt's out there with gobs of PIC time that are complete nincompoops (I know a few),while there are also many F/O's out there that are sharp, very capable and experienced pilots.

Side note: I see you went to UGA, I'm an Auburn guy. Were you at the game 2 weeks ago?

WAR EAGLE, BEAT THEM DAWGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FL717]

Overall it's an easy solution for me, my family and I just choose not to fly AirTran.

The only "obvious" thing to me is that airtran is a 2nd rate airline "pretending" to be a 1st rate airline.

I'm very curious to your comments that I have quoted above. Honest answers... why will you and your family not fly AirTran, and what in your mind makes AirTran a "2nd rate airline pretending to be a 1st rate airline"?

Just curious.

 

[-9Capt]

... why will you and your family not fly AirTran, and what in your mind makes AirTran a "2nd rate airline pretending to be a 1st rate airline"?

Just curious.

That's easy, 'cause they won't hire him.

 

[Ty Webb]

From what I have seen of AirTran's hiring process, they are still small enough for individual resumes to make it to the CP's desk in MCO where they ultimately decide who will interview..

I think you meant the D.O., who is in MCO and reviews the resumes of the pilots the interview committee has selected. The Chief Pilot is in ATL and doesn;t really have anything to do with the interview candidate selection process.

To all the people complaining about the selection process- it is possible to meet the criteria for several companies, and not meet the criteria for others. That is just the fact of life. Focus on the things you can change. Pointless bitching is useless.

 

[capt_zman]

Honestly, my feelings toward Airtran have absolutely nothing to do with me being hired there or not. I have never applied in any way, shape or form. Believe or not, that is the truth.

Reasons why I do not fly Airtran:
1. Airtran does not compete well in my region of the country (northeast). Every quote I get, Airtran always has something wrong. Whether it's multiple connections, poor departure/arrival times, and/or price, when compared with the other airlines, it really is an easy choice. BTW, my choices of airports are both BOS and PVD.

2. I still have trouble with Airtran's lineage. I know it is a different airline with different mgmt/pilots/airplanes, but since I've never flown them, it still is a questionmark for me.

3. Throughout my aviation career, I have never settled for a job because it was the only thing out there. During the 90's, I made the choice not to work for a regional based upon a number of factors. Mostly because it just didn't work for me and my family. I'm not saying that it isn't a good career path, it just isn't for me. Airtran has never been, nor is it now, one of my top 5 choices in aviation. And just because they are one of the only games in town does not change my opinion.

4. Now with all this being said, I learn that Airtran's hiring requirements say that I must have been an AC in the military or a 121 PIC in order to apply. Now I look at this as saying, I've busted my a$$ getting to where I'm at and I feel that I've made the right choices, yet I can't even attempt to play the game if I wanted to. It's just wrong, not only for me and others in a similar situation as myself, but what about all the other people, especially furloughed people, who need "the only game in town" to survive? It's easy for pilots on the other side of the fence to say, "well it's just the way it is, quit bitchin." But what if you were the one looking in? It's hypocritical and/or insincere.

In lieu of #4, I still haven't heard a good argument as to why it is this way. I get flamed and called a child, but nobody has yet presented a logical presentation as to why corporate, charter and furloughed are excluded from Airtran. And because of this fact and the others presented, I can't put Airtran in the same category and class as some of the other airlines, hence the 2nd rate comment.

 

[FL717]

In lieu of #4, I still haven't heard a good argument as to why it is this way. I get flamed and called a child, but nobody has yet presented a logical presentation as to why corporate, charter and furloughed are excluded from Airtran. And because of this fact and the others presented, I can't put Airtran in the same category and class as some of the other airlines, hence the 2nd rate comment.

Thanks for the reply. I have not called any names here, and will in fact admit to you that I have absolutely no "logical presentation as to why corporate, charter and furloughed are excluded from Airtran". It is a complete mystery to me other than the old adage "management reserves the right to mismanage".

I currently disagree with our hiring standards, but then again they pay me to fly, not to manage. I also will admit that I may not have the "big picture" in our hiring scheme, whatever the he!! that picture is.

BTW - AirTran does in fact hire furloughees.... but they must resign their seniority number, which opens a whole new can of b!tch from some people on the forums around here.

 

[-9Capt]

nobody has yet presented a logical presentation as to why corporate, charter and furloughed are excluded from Airtran. And because of this fact and the others presented, I can't put Airtran in the same category and class as some of the other airlines, hence the 2nd rate comment.

The reason, once again, is because the Director of Operations knows (from past experiences) that AirTran has had better success upgrading pilots in 2-3 years if they have been an airline captain somewhere else. It saves the company time and money, and that's what he's concerned about. Sorry if it doesn't seem "logical" to you.

I don't like it either, but it is what it is.