AirTran Airways pilots ARE now ALPA!!

[XRMEFLYER]

Not many. Far fewer than work at United and Continental who did the same thing.

 

[Colonel Savage]

Did Prater cross?

 

[BeCareful!]

No, it's just fact. ALPA National has no say in what happens at the local level. They can provide advice, but they can't make any decisions. All decisions are made at the local level by the MEC and the pilot group.
ALPA's pilots are about evenly split between regional, Canadian, cargo, etc... carriers and "mainline" carriers now. It's actually a slight majority in favor of the majors now that AirTran is joining up.
Of course ALPA National is "involved," but it's not to the level of determining strategy and policy at the local level. Again, they can only provide advice, not make decisions. You could argue that they've provided bad advice, and in certain circumstances I would agree, but you can't claim that they've made the bad decisions about scope. Local groups have made those mistakes.



Hey! We agree! ALPA has done a poor job of that sort of education. Education of the membership is always one of ALPA's weak points, and not just on this issue. Much more work needs to be done in this area.

PCL, your optimism is great, and I really do wish you well, but you'd be well served to listen to the many ALPA detractors. Don't let us get you down, but realize that we have a great deal of experience with ALPA (in my case three different carriers) and we aren't spewing hatred just for the hell of it. ALPA has serious problems. You have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth; you should take in the information and give those that offer it a modicum of respect, or, at least, the benefit of the doubt before you quickly dismiss what we are saying.


Good luck, and keep your eyes open. ALPA has screwed a lot of pilots over in the name of maximizing dues revenue and staying in power.

 

[ualdriver]

Good luck, and keep your eyes open. ALPA has screwed a lot of pilots over in the name of maximizing dues revenue and staying in power.

ALPA has also helped FAR, FAR, FAR more pilots than they have every screwed over. This vote affirms that fact. I wish all the ALPA bashers would keep their eyes open, too.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Did Prater cross?

No. During the CAL strike he got a job at United as a sim instructor. When United struck he honored their picket line and quit.

Also, I believe he was the Honolulu FE Rep at the time. My memory might be a bit fuzzy. I am remembering all this from drinking beers with him.

 

[bluesideup340]

This is a post from the airlinepilotcentral forum.

"The pilots of Air Tran have just taken a giant step BACKWARD in the pursuit to further their careers! They used to have a union representing ONLY the interests of AT pilots. Now....well, now they have a political organization bent on getting as many pilots as possible on their membership rolls (and as much of their hard earned wages as possible in their coffers) regardless of what it does to the airline industry or their company long term! Now you're stuck with ALPA......which is about as easy to get rid of as a case of Herpes.

The future belongs to those who produce for their companies. Impressed with the salaries of SWA Pilots? You should be!! The pilots of SWA work hard for what they get and they don't try to hide that fact. They are proud of it. Go to their website SWAPA and read the first few paragraphs front and center on the page. ALPA wouldn't be caught dead with those words on their website!! ALPA does not know the meaning of the concept called "productivity." It is foreign to their juvenile little minds. All they know is a sense of entitlement and how to preach it (and they do a good job of that). Their behavior is akin to that of the loudest, meanest bully on the playground who will fight anyone, anywhere to get what they want.

They are, in fact, everything I teach my children NOT to be. I am sad to say I have been a member of ALPA (albeit unwillingly) for over 15 years. They have, at every turn, done their level best to destroy my career and damage my company financially. All of their efforts have gone into waging a war against anyone from the CEO to the lowest pilot on the food chain if you disagree with their position or argument.

Their diversionary tactics have been largely successful by changing the subject and keeping the UAL pilots busy so they won't pay attention to what ALPA is ACTUALLY doing!! ALPA is in full blown self preservation mode. They are praying that the UAL pilots will not wake up from their hypnotic trance until after they have ratified the next sub-standard contract. The vast majority of UAL Pilots have NOT read the UAL v ALPA injunction fully, nor the findings of fact, nor the evidence admitted into the case, nor the appellate court's affirmation. Sad, but true!

To the pilots of Air Tran: I am sure ALPA painted a rosy picture of what it is going to be like to be with the biggest, baddest, loudest and proudest pilot union out there. However, I encourage you to do your own thinking and your own homework. Log on to Information: United Airlines - ALPA Lawsuit and read about how ALPA severely damaged the careers and futures of ALL United Pilots last year with their charades. Read the injunction, the court order, the appellate judges' affirmation of the lower court's decision and the evidence admitted in the case.

The story is there for everyone with an open mind and a shred of honesty to read. The rest will continue being ALPA's good little parrots. "Unity!, Unity!"

 

[Ty Webb]

This is a post from the airlinepilotcentral forum.

"The pilots of Air Tran have just taken a giant step BACKWARD in the pursuit to further their careers! They used to have a union representing ONLY the interests of AT pilots. Now.

Obviously written by a someone with no knowledge of the situation at Airtran. How about you worry about YOUR airline, and we'll worry about ours, jackass.

 

[Mamma]

Obviously written by a someone with no knowledge of the situation at Airtran. How about you worry about YOUR airline, and we'll worry about ours, jackass.

He is too drunk on "Blue Juice" to worry about his airline.

 

[ualdriver]

This is a post from the airlinepilotcentral forum.

"The pilots of Air Tran have just taken a giant step BACKWARD in the pursuit to further their careers! They used to have a union representing ONLY the interests of AT pilots. Now....well, now they have a political organization bent on getting as many pilots as possible on their membership rolls (and as much of their hard earned wages as possible in their coffers) regardless of what it does to the airline industry or their company long term! Now you're stuck with ALPA......which is about as easy to get rid of as a case of Herpes.

Interesting. I didn't know Glenn Tilton had an account on airlinepilotcentral.com.....

 

[Britpilot]

This is a post from the airlinepilotcentral forum.

"The pilots of Air Tran have just taken a giant step BACKWARD in the pursuit to further their careers!

Yawn, stretch...............fart.

 

[MINIME]

This is a post from the airlinepilotcentral forum.

The future belongs to those who produce for their companies. Impressed with the salaries of SWA Pilots? You should be!! The pilots of SWA work hard for what they get and they don't try to hide that fact. They are proud of it. Go to their website SWAPA and read the first few paragraphs front and center on the page. ALPA wouldn't be caught dead with those words on their website!! ALPA does not know the meaning of the concept called "productivity." It is foreign to their juvenile little minds. All they know is a sense of entitlement and how to preach it (and they do a good job of that). Their behavior is akin to that of the loudest, meanest bully on the playground who will fight anyone, anywhere to get what they want.

If this person did their homework on AirTran Management, he'd understand that this sentence applies squarely to those executives. That Management Team could possibly be the hardest, most anti-labor trained around. They learned from the best (Frank Lorenzo) the art of union busting.

They are a handful. Fighting them with a weak union is like bringing sticks to a gun fight. The only suppressive fire they understand is hardcore litigation every time they break the rules. Litigation that in the end will hit the only thing they care about, their MONEY.

With more litigation, may come less intimidation and more job protection for the pilots. Which will eventually embolden the group to picket more, and eventually full blown war that may lead to a strike. Sounds bad, but unfortunately that's the only language that these types of Management Teams understand.

Alpa is the most likely body to bring these weapons. Alpa has the money and the litigators. AAI pilots need the big guns (litigators) and the funds. Most of the rank and file appears to be ready, especially their more junior ranks. We'll see if they elect solid MEC leadership to lead the way. In the end, the pilots are still responsible for the use of those weapons.

SWA management has been 180 degrees the other direction thus far. Most of the pilots' gains have come through a good and fair working relationship with management. I'll argue that that's the only reason you don't hear the calls of war with them. There simply hasn't been a need for it. Let's hope it remains that way.

 

[eaglesview]

Interesting. I didn't know Glenn Tilton had an account on airlinepilotcentral.com.....

He doesn't need one. The quote is accurate. ALPA has know idea who they are or who they want to be and Glenn knows it. With or without our hats, Local minority stickers or numerous bracelets.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Well, PCL, that might be a bit naive of you. ALPA has had this "play nice with everyone" thing going on for a while. You think Bill Couette (EGL) is going to hold a tough stance SCOPE? Not that he's the be-all-end-all there at National, but he is on the Executive Board. It's a sign of the times that ALPA is representing mostly regional airline pilots. Are you arguing this? Or are you aware of it?

Sure, in the most idealistic sense, each ALPA pilot group is purely atonomous and allowed to fight like hell for what it thinks is right. Is this the pure truth? The whole truth? Not really. ALPA National is clearly involved in the plan of attack on management, and mostly their intentions are good, but for who? Here are some comments by Duane Woerth:
Management has a strategy to further divide us and ratchet us down – they call it “brand management.” We need a counter strategy and we need it yesterday. What I believe we need is brand governance for pilots within the brand. Traditional scope fences will still be necessary outside of the brand, but inside the brand it is going to require a paradigm shift to what I call “the next generation of scope.”
This next generation of scope sets contractual standards for brand eligibility. This scope focuses more on the quality of the contract rather than merely on the quantity of small jet aircraft. To remove management’s financial incentive to develop even more substandard subsets within the brand and accelerate the proverbial race to the bottom – which they think they’ve got right now – all of us need to work on a coordinated brand scope strategy.


So you're telling me that National isn't involved in the shaping of SCOPE policy? I think they are, and I think it influences the thinking of the individual ALPA groups.


This could go on forever but I'll cut to the chase: I think ALPA does a poor job of educating the membership of the importance of fighting for the profession, sacraficing if necessary to make sure that future generations will have major airline jobs, not just the crumbs left after the whipsawing is finished.


I still wish you guys well though! Anytime a group stands up and overwhelmingly votes for their future it's an important step. It means you have the group's attention, and I hope you use this opportunity wisely.


BC

And usappa does this better how, again? I seem to have missed that lesson ....

PHXFLYR