Airtran: 717 Vs 737

[Flying-Corporal]

It seems most people prefer 737 over 717 at Airtran. Is the life really better on the 737 side even though there are twice as many 717s compared to 737s?

I would assume 717 is better just by the fact that that there are more destinations on it.

 

[Wesb737fo]

I would give you the "Doctor Perry Cox (from tv's Scrubs)" answer, but I'm too nice. I suppose the reason would be that "life on reserve" for the 737 is (currently) shorter (only spent 2 mo's on reserve and 2 months on build up lines). It was a little longer on the 717 for other '06 hires. I'm sure that will change as time goes on. However current reserve rules are in you favor, especially if you don't commute.

Your assumption that the 717 is better due to more destinations is not accurate, in my humble opinion (partly because the destinations are all blending together anyway). However, if you like shorter flights and trips (although more legs) take the 717. If you want longer flights and trips (4 days seems the norm) take the 737.

Don't forget about San Diego, L.A., PHX and Vegas for the 737. I like the 737NG despite the avionics (thanks Herb K) but after 4,000 hours I'm in danger of becoming an institutionalized Boeing 73 guy anyway. I couldn't tell you anything about the 717.

do you have a class date?

 

[doer42]

If you are a commuter that lives in an AirTran city, pick the airplane that overnights in that city. One more night at home. Otherwise one or two months difference on reserve really makes no difference in a 15-20 yr career. If you stay that long you will eventually fly the 73 guaranteed. Why not spend a few years on the 71. Variety is the spice of life. Both are great airplanes. You can't lose.

 

[Sunking]

I flew the 717 for a couple of years and have recently upgraded on the 737. Here is my take for what it is worth. The 717 is a high tech bird mostly because they listened to pilots that wanted their lives simplified by automation. As mentioned before the 737 is mostly designed for SWA who wanted commonality with the old fleet. The 717's cockpit is much quieter and has a better layout for your flightbag. That being said I like to 737. It has plenty of power all the way to altitude, we reduce the reduced power on practically every flight. You store your carryons in the cockpit which is great for fast get aways as you dash to your commuter flight home. In todays world in much better to have 737 time as opposed to 717, you know , just in case.
Also the biggest difference I've noticed was the training department. The 717 program puts unneeded pressure, preaching doom and gloom. While the 737 program gets the job done just as well without the pressure cooker. Good luck I hope this helped.

 

[c9skytrain]

My two cents:
I am on the 73, but with the upgrades going the way they are, I would have to upgrade on the 71 to upgrade at my first chance. Everyone seems to be jumping over to the 73, heck we even have fos jumping over seat lock and all. You may want to think of the starting on the airplane you will upgrade on to keep it an easy upgrade. I've been here over a year and have moved up only 26 numbers seniority on the 73 side because of the FOs jumping over. I've moved up seniority overall fairly well because of overall movement.

 

[Lear70]

Otherwise one or two months difference on reserve really makes no difference in a 15-20 yr career.

It's more than one or two months. The 737 guys in my class didn't sit ONE DAY of reserve. I was on reserve for 7 months and still on buildup lines now on the 717.

It hasn't been terrible, but I'm one of those people who simply doesn't give a crap about the pay IF I can't be home to enjoy it, so I drop days off down to a 14 day off MINIMUM, preferably 16-18 days off and the company lets me, which is nice.

If you stay that long you will eventually fly the 73 guaranteed. Why not spend a few years on the 71. Variety is the spice of life. Both are great airplanes. You can't lose.

Assuming this company stays around? I'm hoping (and betting) it will, but I'm also going to bid over to the 737 at the earliest opportunity.

I may be crazy locking myself into the F/O seat another 2 years, but my upgrade is going to be 3 1/2 to 4 years ANYWAY, and the 737 experience will help if things go south suddenly and I find myself needing another job, even a Supplemental 121, 125, or ex-Pat work.

After being furloughed twice and having one carrier die, I'm a little pre-loaded to make sure I've covered my bases, keep my resume and logbook updated, and never become complacent.

God willing, I won't ever need to worry about it.

 

[Steeler Fan]

If you have a 5-digit employee number, you should definitely bid the 737 CA, or stay an F/O and enjoy the relative seniority. If you're a 717 CA, 75M and I hope that you bid over to the 737 as soon as you can.

Is anyone out there thinking of bidding from 737 F/O to 717 CA?

 

[75M]

If you have a 5-digit employee number, you should definitely bid the 737 CA, or stay an F/O and enjoy the relative seniority. If you're a 717 CA, 75M and I hope that you bid over to the 737 as soon as you can.

I'm just happy to be here and all I want to do is help the team.

Is anyone out there thinking of bidding from 737 F/O to 717 CA?

Have fun with that one...

 

[Phaedrus]

I'm just happy to be here and all I want to do is help the team.

Coach?
Seriously though, the 717 is an awesome airplane. Really enjoyed flying it. While the 37 is definitely more widely marketable, the 17 worked out for me since I was traded for cash and an 8th round draft choice to the Memphis Purples.

 

[DonVerita]

For those who think having 737-700/800 experience is going to make you more "marketable", keep one thing in mind: If you jump ship to SWA, FedEx, UPS or whomever, what is going to get you hired is that you have Part 121 Major airline experience flying large sophisticated jets. Whether the type rating says 737 or 717 is irrelevant. [Foreign contracts excluded]

If you want to have fun flying a state of the art fully automated aircraft...choose the 717.
If you want to be 10 years behind in technology...take the 737 and be sure to thank SWA for that.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Lear 70: Are people getting worried about AirTran's future now? Seems like the Corporation has been through a lot and just kept going forward.

Has anyone gone 737FO to 717CA? The 717 training program sounds a little like ASA's E120 training back in the day. Although, what could make the 717 a hard airplane?

Seems like many of my friends who went to AirTran really stress over 717 checkrides, are they handing out arbitrary busts over there?

What would a new hire expect upgrade times to be over there anyway? 5 to 6 years? How would that change if MidWest was bought?

Also, are many wanting to make the jump to Delta?

 

[SkiFishFly]

I like the 737. The schedules are pretty good. The airplane is fun to fly. I've moved up about 30 numbers over the last year and a half and they have hired 100+ 737 FOs below me.
I've ridden the 717 jumpseat a few times commuting. The aircraft does have pretty good automation. I still think I prefer the 737 and intend to stay on it - even if 717 Capt is available sooner than 73. If it looks like there will be a significant difference between the 2 upgrade times then I may have to consider the 717.
I'm still thinking upgrade around 3 years. That may get extended to 3.5 to 4 though. Hard to be certain in this industry.

 

[j41driver]

Whether the type rating says 737 or 717 is irrelevant.

Unless your jumping ship for SWA. Then it's pretty relevant.

 

[DonVerita]

Unless your jumping ship for SWA. Then it's pretty relevant.

Not really. SWA is going to hire you because of your major airline experience flying large transport category jet aircraft...not because you have a 737 type rating. Look how many people get hired that don't have it and then go to one of those quickie type schools to get one. Then of course they are really trained once they get to SWA.

Having the 737 type means nothing going in. It will however save you a few thousand bucks getting the rating prior to starting training at SWA.

Whatever plane you find the most fun and makes you happy is the one you should go with.

 

[Ty Webb]

I would plan to upgrade on the 717, since that will become the junior airplane. With that in mind, you may want to bid 717 FO as well.

 

[RadioClash]

The 717 training program sounds a little like ASA's E120 training back in the day. Although, what could make the 717 a hard airplane?

Seems like many of my friends who went to AirTran really stress over 717 checkrides, are they handing out arbitrary busts over there?

Fins,

I wouldn't go far to say that it was like the E-120 training at ASA, as far as having to memorize which valves opened and closed when the aircraft was getting refueled, or having to memorize three electrical systems and be able to draw them. Thank God for L. Boone when he was at ASA.

The 717 is a fairly easy aircraft to learn. Systems are pretty simple but the training department, some instructors, NOT ALL, like to put the fear of God into FO's and remind them how it took them 18 years at Eastern to make it to the left seat, A previous poster likened it to hazing fo's. There are some great guys in the training department but there are a lot of horror stories floating around that tends to scare the crap out of newhires. Not sure why it has to be like that. I have been told that the 737 is completely different.

Overall though I am having a great time here and I am glad that I am at AirTran.

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70: Are people getting worried about AirTran's future now? Seems like the Corporation has been through a lot and just kept going forward.

No, it's just me.

I'm a worry wart... I still have a good time with life, but I hedge my bets. That means making a lateral move to 737 F/O when my 2 year seat lock is up early next year.

And Don, you're absolutely right... but my sights would go to the ex-Pat (foreign) flying first if I was ever furloughed here... you know... where they actually still respect their aviators and compensate them fairly well?

Has anyone gone 737FO to 717CA?

Quite a few. Actually, they BYPASSED a lot of 717 F/O to CA upgrades with full CA pay in order to keep 717 F/O's in the seats (due to high F/O attrition). That means most of the CA upgrades on the last vacancy were 737 F/O's.

Although, what could make the 717 a hard airplane?

The automation, how it integrates with the rest of the avionics AND systems and WHY, combined with the antiquated way the FMS works.

The systems themselves are pretty standard and straightforward Boeing, with the exception of the Aux Hydraulic and XFER pump and the Pneumatic system which are old DC-9 technology and still pretty straightforward, just different.

What catches a lot of people is the automation. The FMS is really counter-intuitive in design if you've ever flown an FMS-equipped aircraft, and the way it interacts and CONTROLS thrust, navigation, as well as instrumentation is fairly difficult to catch at first. The 737 avionics package was a lot easier to memorize IMHO...

Seems like many of my friends who went to AirTran really stress over 717 checkrides, are they handing out arbitrary busts over there?

Not that I know of, although the CA upgrade bust rate is pretty high (or at least was when we were going through). It's more in the training center attitude... it's kind of a "put the fear of God into them" kind of course.

What would a new hire expect upgrade times to be over there anyway? 5 to 6 years? How would that change if MidWest was bought?

If hired now? Yeah, about 5 years.

Those of us hired last year are looking at 3-4 (I'm thinking closer to 4), but that really depends on CA attrition.

Also, are many wanting to make the jump to Delta?

That and the recall rate are the big question marks, along with whether we can get a BIG jump in pay rates with the next contract, especially for F/O's who are compensated 2nd to worst in the entire industry. Halfway to SWA rates would be my minimum acceptable level. Without those, a lot of F/O fence-sitters will be pushed into making a jump to another carrier.

How many will we lose to recall? No one knows, and almost ALL the furloughed major pilots are CA's now. If a lot left, that would seriously reduce upgrade times and F/O retention (looking at a quicker upgrade always helps the decision to stay put).

How many will jump to the Legacy carriers as they gear up hiring? We had a Delta guy on the jumpseat a couple days ago and he was asking me what I thought.

My answer was it really depends on how much faith a guy has in whether the NEXT round of negotiations for the Legacies (post-bankruptcy protection) will yield MAJOR increases back towards a reasonable level. A 50% pay cut was NOT reasonable nor even necessary for the industry's recovery. If you have faith that'll happen, then by all means go. If you don't, then you're better off staying put.

Not to mention mediocre growth at the Legacies as more and more flying is outsourced to RJ affiliates (see NWA recent fleet plan announcement - likely to be repeated at other Legacies), as well as the age 65 increase that goes into effect next year.

My faith in ALPA recovering those pay rates much higher than we can obtain here is pretty much Nill, not to mention not wanting to be a 10-year F/O. Those combined with a general enjoyment of my job here make me want to stay put.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thanks - good info.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Im hearing that that the FO rates will go up between 15 to 20%. 3rd year around 72-73$. The rates will probably be closer to Frontiers current fo rates.. I do agree if the fos do not get a decent pay raise the flood gates will open and all the fence sitters will be on the move.

 

[Lear70]

Im hearing that that the FO rates will go up between 15 to 20%. 3rd year around 72-73$.

That's what the DVD the Association put out said, except year 4 and 5 year increases were only 5%, which isn't even COLA from the current agreement in adjusted dollars for inflation the last 2 years of not having any COLA raises.

The rates will probably be closer to Frontiers current fo rates..

Which are the next to lowest in the industry and were part of a concessionary agreement with pay freezes. We're comparing ourselves to THAT??!!

I do agree if the fos do not get a decent pay raise the flood gates will open and all the fence sitters will be on the move.

Yup. I'm hearing a lot of that from guys in my relative seniority. My bet is if the Agreement comes through with F/O pay rates in the range proposed by our own Association, you'll see a very LARGE increase in F/O attrition within 6-12 months to the Legacy carriers which will be at peak hiring about that same time.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

I never said Frontiers rates where great, just pointing out what I heard.

 

[Lear70]

I never said Frontiers rates where great, just pointing out what I heard.

Oh, OK... I gotcha. :beer:

 

[gt1900]

Just checked out some of the other airlines 3rd year pay..

SWA.. $98
AMR...777=$111 738=$90 MD=$88
DAL... 777=$109 738=$88 MD=$79
CO.. Wide=$84 LN=$73 SN=$64
ALA.. $73
F9.. $73
Midwest..$62
AAI..$61
JB.. 320=$61 E190=$53
Spirit.. 321=$62 MD/319=$56

Im thinking around $80 hr would be about right for AAI pilots.. But it would probably pass with about $75..

 

[dtfl]

Im hearing that that the FO rates will go up between 15 to 20%. 3rd year around 72-73$. The rates will probably be closer to Frontiers current fo rates.. I do agree if the fos do not get a decent pay raise the flood gates will open and all the fence sitters will be on the move.

Have yall reached a T/A with mgmt?

 

[Lear70]

Have yall reached a T/A with mgmt?

No, not even close.

Latest negotiating update came through this morning, along with a P2P update asking us to start getting names of people who might be interested in some information picketing at an as-yet undisclosed date and location.

Close on Retirement & Insurance as well as Scheduling.

All the other relatively benign sections T.A.'d. Compensation hasn't even really been started yet other than Union and Company proposals back and forth.

The union proposal is probably what he's talking about. They released that to us in a DVD along with an explanation of where it falls comparably with other majors.

The CA pay rates "proposed" by our MEC are pretty good. The F/O rates are mediocre at best, especially for year 4 and 5 F/O's.

 

[mnboyev]

Informational picketing.. yeah.. right... This is just an act to celebrate the contract anniversary date. ie April.... I bet 2 beers on on a TA by July....... maybe june... FO's will get a raise..... They deserve it..

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Oh, OK... I gotcha. :beer:

:beer:

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Also heaed that we lost 40 pilots last month. My buddy just went through recurrent, and there saying april it will be TA. But then again I really dont much.:nuts:

 

[Lear70]

Informational picketing.. yeah.. right... This is just an act to celebrate the contract anniversary date. ie April....

Probably.

I bet 2 beers on on a TA by July....... maybe june... FO's will get a raise..... They deserve it..

I'm not taking that bet. At the rate they're going, you may be right.

 

[TV9Driver]

as far as the 717 vs. 737...... who cares, they pay the same. Go for quality of life issues - good schedules, overnights at home, etc...