Airtan Pilots

[greenpilot]

Gup,
My guess is no matter what happens atl will always be a base. I do believe if this goes to arbitration there will be a lot less then 850 AirTran pilots able to hold atl. Lear doesn't live in atl so I don't know why he cares

 

[Lear70]

Don't you guys get super-seniority in ATL?

Gup

No. There's absolutely no provision in SL9 or in the AIP that we've been given bulletpoints of (and that would have been seen as a MAJOR part of any agreement) that allows for a "base within a base within a base", whereby we'd have an un-transitioned AAI side, a regular SWA base, and another group of "super-senior" AAI pilots who are always senior to other SWA pilots in ATL.

Once a SWA pilot gets into ATL, they bid against our other 737 pilots just like they would at any other base. A SWA pilot can only be displaced if a more senior SWA pilot is displaced and wants ATL or if a previous-AirTran pilot is displaced and wants to come back to ATL (27.F.3.F).

And I don't think you're picking on me, it's just a healthy debate so we understand each other's point of view. No animosity, you guys didn't craft this, I'm not taking it personally, just wanting it to work the way it was advertised.

As for your other question, I'm not entirely certain, but I know that they want at least 5/7 737's/717's in ATL, so I don't see the base closing, although it could certainly be smaller with a lower fence. That's a risk of arbitration, but then we'd have better seniority in most cases, so a lot of us would bid to other SWA bases (I'd be mid-level in MCO with Date of Hire and would gladly take that over bottom 23% in ATL). If, if, if... we know how THAT goes.

Lear's points seem fair, to me. If this is what ALPA is doing, I have no problem with it (other than the timing). Hopefully, that's what's happening and the "4 parties" will resolve these issues, quickly. If not...

BTW, I'm still undecided and the language of the MOU/4 party agreement may have an effect on my vote.

Fair enough. I know it's not a "given" on your side of the fence, either.

As far as "what ALPA is doing", there's several sides and facets of what's going on behind the scenes right now. The MC is trying to fix these issues in Dallas, which is what is taking so long. They also recognize that there are those who are hoping they CAN'T deliver on the AIP bulletpoint promises, because they know that would kill it at the MEC level, so the stakes of getting those protections right are high. If they can, the MEC will be cornered and probably have to send it to vote.

Hey Lear,

If you wanted to stay in one place your whole life you should have become a shoe salesman...your in the airline industry, you were bought, you are going to get a raise in the biggest recession since the big one...yet you are nitpicking this thing...

It's not just me, there's lots of people seeing the possibilities of the AIP bulletpoints to be bypassed in the actual SL9 language (including our attorney). I'm just communicating what's going on (from what little I know) so you guys understand what our people are worried about.

Mr Kelly has an airline to run, he showed his hand with ATL (did not have to...)...who the hell knows what's going to happen in the next 10 years, don't tie the company's hand...they are not out to screw you, just make money...GK had to throw a bone to the SWA pilots, we got seniority, you get everything else and yes you may have to move...deal with it, your an airline pilot, we all have had to uproot, it's part of the career...

I'm not moving. That much is certain (joint custody issues, I spend all my off time with my son). But I don't live in ATL, either. I was just looking forward to having SOME seniority to exert to make ELITT and TTGA easier with better trips to offer by going back to ATL until SWA has some attrition in 4-5 years and I can hold that same seniority in other bases (bidding in the bottom 10% in a combined list but would be 25% in ATL). A lot of other pilots were planning the same thing, so it's a major issue.

It's like anything else. If you get sold one thing then delivered something else entirely, it's aggravating. The same thing happened to you guys to a certain extent, your Comm people sold you one bill of goods and this falls short of it. In my opinion, they mis-managed your expectations, hence the level of angst over there right now. We're just trying to make sure the same thing doesn't happen here TWICE. It happened once with the AIP - came out MUCH lower than our expectations were set. Now they're set again with the AIP, and I don't think they'll take a 2nd hit - it'll die at the MEC level if it happens.

 

[madjack]

it'll die at the MEC level if it happens.

If that happens, SWA will be just the latest airline in that long distinguished of lists of airlines that have been screwed by ALPA...go ahead F(*& it away, arby would be better for me in terms of time to upgrade (shorter fence, less seat protection for your CPs), but I would rather come to work at a place where the pilot group got along, and a negotiated settlement is the best hope for that...

 

[Lear70]

it'll die at the MEC level if it happens.

If that happens, SWA will be just the latest airline in that long distinguished of lists of airlines that have been screwed by ALPA...go ahead F(*& it away, arby would be better for me in terms of time to upgrade (shorter fence, less seat protection for your CPs), but I would rather come to work at a place where the pilot group got along, and a negotiated settlement is the best hope for that...

That's all very true, and I don't blame you for feeling that way. It's one of the only reasons I'm CONSIDERING taking TWICE the hit I'm told I'd probably take in arbitration.

NONE of the protections except the guarantee of employment and the ATL base affect me personally, but my reasons for being open to this solution are:

1. I want to work at Southwest.
2. I don't want to screw my fellow 717 pilots and Captains by voting no so I can personally gain at their possible expense (loss of protections).
3. I want the combined group to not be at each other's throats for years to come.

Everyone is going to be irritated, some on our side probably more than yours with this deal and stagnating growth, but better to have a negotiated solution than one forced on everyone, especially now that we have this solution. If we kill it and get something better in Arby, your guys would hate us for years.

Matching it to the AIP is totally up to SWAPA and SWA at this point.

 

[GuppyWN]

Lear,

Let me rephrase. Airtran pilots get EVERY Atlanta bid until 2020. I don't think it's a matter of making it a WN base or not. Ya'll get first dibs - period.

I thought.

 

[Lear70]

That's what we were told, too, except there's a loophole in SL9 that could be exploited to open it BEFORE our crews start transitioning, thus staffing it with SWA pilots. It's not entirely clear how the displacements would work in that case with Par 11 of SL9.

Just questions that we're trying to get answered in the 4-party agreement. It may totally work that way in the end, just standing by for answers...

 

[madjack]

I heard from one of our union guys that AIRTRAN ALPA was "closing the loopholes"...but the end effect would not substantively change the intent of the agreement...

 

[Lear70]

I heard from one of our union guys that AIRTRAN ALPA was "closing the loopholes"...but the end effect would not substantively change the intent of the agreement...

That's what I mean. The bulletpoints of the AIP came out and we're just looking to make sure that the intent of the AIP is held up in the language.

It's all good, just have to let them work it out.

 

[whalepilot747]

Lear,

From what I reading and understanding in your posts. ALPA is looking out for ALPA at the national level so they do not get sued again and lose. ALPA's interest is ALPA. They know AT pilots are leaving for SWAPA. Dude, I too was a paranoid ALPA guy for many years and I still have the nervous tic every once in a while. What ALPA doesnt understand and never will is that there does not have an adverserial (sp?) relationship all the time. The company is not always out to screw it's pilots. Granted, two sides may not always agree but it can be worked out without the normal ALPA bs.

My understanding is that trannies are protected in ATL, plain and simple. Gup's said it as well. I hope you realize the difference when you get here and your "nervous tic" will subside as well like mine has over the years. Whatever you decide or all the trannies that's up to you............

Life is perfect here but a helluva lot better than any place I have ever worked and I am definitely not a Kool-aid drinker.....

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

It would be wonderful to just "trust" your mgmt. However, your mgmt has employed KG and GA. Forgive me, but those two can't be trusted further than you could throw them. There is at least one other issue about your mgmt that has given our mec pause as well. Unfortunately, these two issues have not created a trustworthy environment. I'm well aware we don't work for GK yet, however, he's missed some no cost opportunities to grease the skids in the trust department. So far, we're seeing SSDD.