Airlines say pilot fatigue rule would cost jobs

[pilotyip]

Since the entire industry will be subject to the same rules, the consumer cannot choose an alternative carrier over $2. And the actual increase in costs will be so insignificant, it will have NO perceivable affect on bookings.

and then you are going to tell me that the increases in tickets prices due to increasing fuel costs in the spring of 2008 had no effect upon airline load factors?

 

[Inconceivable]

and then you are going to tell me that the increases in tickets prices due to increasing fuel costs in the spring of 2008 had no effect upon airline load factors?

No, I will tell you that increasing fuel costs in 2008 were accompanied by increasing costs in all sectors of the economy on which petroleum relied - like the big American SUVs that passengers drive to the terminal before getting on a flight or the cost of goods for a firm that decides to curtail expenses and reduces nonessential travel.

2008 was about a reduction in discretionary spending brought on by the price of EVERYTHING increasing at once.

Please try again.

 

[pilotyip]

Please try again.

not going to, Adam Smith understood it 230 years ago, it takes a while to figure it out.

 

[sbnflyer]

I'll spoon feed it to you. To comply would require hiring significantly more pilots, this would result in a cost structure that isn't viable. Therefore, instead of pilots being hired, schedules will be cut back, markets will get dropped, airplanes will get parked and pilots will be laid off.

Pretty simple. If the cost of compliance makes it uneconomic, air service will curtailed.

No contradiction at all.

Have a nice evening.

Can you be more condescending? The point of my post was to point out that management will say anything to get their way. The original headline of "MORE JOBS" sounds pretty good in a down economy so no one listened. Change to "LESS JOBS" and politicians might take notice not wanting to get blamed for killing jobs. In my own opinion, at worst, the work rules and proposed cutbacks would cancel each other out resulting in no layoffs at all for pilots. More likely, people will still fly at 5 dollars more a ticket and nothing will change in the route structure.

No go back to the management office and stop bothering the line guys please....we have work to do.

 

[brokeflyer]

airlines need to charge more for the ticket. that is why they fail and that is why they compromise safety.

 

[General Lee]

airlines need to charge more for the ticket. that is why they fail and that is why they compromise safety.

It's called bag fees.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[IBNAV8R]

Funny how ATA would seem to think that a buck or two per flight will kill jobs and be the downfall of the industry but $15 a bag won't.

 

[badog]

Funny how ATA would seem to think that a buck or two per flight will kill jobs and be the downfall of the industry but $15 a bag won't.

Perfect!
You sir are brilliant.

 

[Smarta$$]

and then you are going to tell me that the increases in tickets prices due to increasing fuel costs in the spring of 2008 had no effect upon airline load factors?

Oil going from $30 to $140 has a much greater effect on ticket prices than does increasing pilot staffing in a minor way, which is all that would be required for most airlines.

Come on. You lose any chance at credibility when you are dishonest or unreasonable.

 

[surveypilot]

From an outsider view point (I have never flown for the airlines), it seems as though these new duty rules will largely only affect the regional airlines. I would think that this would indeed drive up the typical regional airline CASM. I would think that this along with increasing fuel prices would help push the economics more in favor of the majors bringing more flying in house, and utilizing the regionals less. If it cost the same or more to outsource the flying, I would think that the majors would be more inclined to bring the flying back in house.

 

[Inconceivable]

From an outsider view point (I have never flown for the airlines), it seems as though these new duty rules will largely only affect the regional airlines. I would think that this would indeed drive up the typical regional airline CASM. I would think that this along with increasing fuel prices would help push the economics more in favor of the majors bringing more flying in house, and utilizing the regionals less. If it cost the same or more to outsource the flying, I would think that the majors would be more inclined to bring the flying back in house.

...which would be an incredible boon for the regional pilots

 

[General Lee]

From an outsider view point (I have never flown for the airlines), it seems as though these new duty rules will largely only affect the regional airlines. I would think that this would indeed drive up the typical regional airline CASM. I would think that this along with increasing fuel prices would help push the economics more in favor of the majors bringing more flying in house, and utilizing the regionals less. If it cost the same or more to outsource the flying, I would think that the majors would be more inclined to bring the flying back in house.

Bingo! And guys like Jon Ravioli and Joe Merchant don't want that, because they are looking for larger planes at their airlines without having to interview at the Majors, probably because each know that they wouldn't pass an interview.

If it is done in the name of safety, I am all for it, even if it unfortunately makes Regional Airlines more inefficient. And if that means cutting 8 daily RJs from OKC to Atlanta and replacing that service with 3 MD88s, sobeit.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flyer1015]

Bingo! And guys like Jon Ravioli and Joe Merchant don't want that, because they are looking for larger planes at their airlines without having to interview at the Majors, probably because each know that they wouldn't pass an interview.

If it is done in the name of safety, I am all for it, even if it unfortunately makes Regional Airlines more inefficient. And if that means cutting 8 daily RJs from OKC to Atlanta and replacing that service with 3 MD88s, sobeit.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Of course, your Delta bretherns didn't think this way in the early/mid 90s. Pot calling the kettle black....

 

[IBNAV8R]

In other words, if it eliminates the bottom-feeders that got you to where you are AND we can put a safety sticker on it - all the better. Hate to burst your bubble, GLEE, but it's going to take a bit more than a few extra pilots to tip the scales.

6 oversold RJs are still going to trump 3 75%-full mad-dogs.

What WILL tip the scales is when regionals can't find the crews (at what they're willing to pay) to cover the flights.

 

[pilotyip]

Many different views on what will happen. When no one really knows what will happen because the final rule has not even been written. However there will be unintended consequences and for anyone to say they have figured these out is pure guess work..

 

[Smarta$$]

Many different views on what will happen. When no one really knows what will happen because the final rule has not even been written. However there will be unintended consequences and for anyone to say they have figured these out is pure guess work..

Hilarious YIP. Typical corporate lap dog that you are. If "no one really knows" and the "final rule has not been writen" then how can the ATA put out a headline like this?

"(Reuters) - Big U.S. airlines told the Obama administration on Thursday complying with a regulation in the works to combat pilot fatigue would cost $2 billion a year and over time cut 27,000 jobs directly tied to the industry."

Sorry, this is corporate opportunism trying to use the bad economy and the publics fears over jobs as a way to keep the least restrictive rest rules of nearly any industrialized nation. This will affect regional airlines primarliy, and they can't staff their cockpits adequately as it is. This will not have the negative effect that you suggest.

 

[ASApuppy]

They are using this and the current state of the economy as the reason for a downsizing. But, the real reason is pilot shortage. AMR just announced voluntary leave for 200 flight attendents. The reason, no pilots. They are forced to reduce capacity. With no new LCC ready to backfill the vacated routes, management is all onboard. They want to limit the number of "Walmart" pax in favor of the "Niemen Marcus" pax. If you can cut the seats on a route and effectively start a bidding war for seats.

It will be interesting what happens in ATL when Airtran becomes SWA. Will it be a full on fare war, or will they leave the routes alone and compete on services, i.e. free bags or first class.

I personally see the this as the sunset of the regional industry. The mainline operators are not going to shrink their own operations to the point that they can not fill their international flights. Most those flights operate on a daily schedule. There has not really been a downward pressure on regional costs. We are getting raises and fees paid have been getting smaller. But, the breaking point is about reached. There are not enough pilots applying to the regionals to meet their demand. Far cry from 13 years ago when people lined up out the door with $10k checks in their hand for a job. That oversupply is what I believe to be what started the downward pressure. The tide has swung. Even Gojets has to offer street captain hiring to cover their flying.

Another huge change in the last decade has been the increase in the cost to fly a general aviation plane. Seems like yesterday that I rented a C-152 for $50/hr wet. Now its over $100/hr. The rest of the world has not seen a 100% cost increase in the last decade. Except for oil.

I think the future is mainline partners asking their regionals how many flights they run each month, versus the other way around. Bigger planes on less frequency is the only option I see. I hope that no scope is relaxed. I am ready to interview.

 

[pilotyip]

Hilarious YIP. Typical corporate lap dog that you are. This will not have the negative effect that you suggest.

My that certainly makes things better. You will notice I said there are many different views, they are all guesses. Including the one you quoted. Only in hindsite will we be able to say what he impact was, that is not pro or anti management nor pro or anti pilot. Just a statement of fact. There will be unintended consequences, your guess may be better than mine, but it is still a guess, like where the stock market will be on 12-31-11

 

[bizicmo]

and then you are going to tell me that the increases in tickets prices due to increasing fuel costs in the spring of 2008 had no effect upon airline load factors?

Airline have increased ticket prices about 6 times this year, heck they just did one of the raises last week. Where are loads? All time highs. Yeah a real killer.

 

[doh]

More rest. Let the chips fall where they may.