Airline pilot pay

[RP170]

How about these numbers for some statistics.

In the United States...

Average income per household: $46,325
Average income per household with two income earners: $67,348

Average income, males 25 or older: $33,517
Average income, females 25 or older: $19,679

Average salary with high school: $26,505
Avereage salary with bachelor's degree: $43,143
Average salary with some college: $31,04
Average salary with masters degree: $52,390
Average salary with PhD: $70,853

Since 2004, salaries are down 4%

Source for these numbers?

 

[gnx99]

As much as it sucks to hear some of the payscales at some of the regionals, everything breaks down into supply and demand. Big supply of pilots, not very high demand = low pay. Unfortunately it's economics 101, and people DO have the option of not flying.

And as for the big supply of pilots, can people really be blamed? It is (was?) a VERY desirable profession. How many other jobs can someone with no college fly a 20+ million dollar jet, and realistically make $70,000+ and have 16 days off a month? There's thousands of more crappy jobs out there.

I guess the only way pay will really change (for the better) is if the supply of pilots REALLY dries up. From what I hear many flight schools are hurting for business, so maybe we're inching closer to that?

 

[Rip Vanwinkle]

I think we're missing Pilotontherise's larger point in the clamor of people screaming "we're underpayed" and "no way this job rocks!" College may not be necessary for a shiney jetjob, but I think middle school still is, so I imagine that everyone is familiar with the concept of supply and demand, and needs no remedial education. Agreed, yes, the issue is not "what we deserve", but what we're able to negotiate. On a micro scale, that holds water. However, in a labor market that is completley controlled by political considerations, free market aphorisms do not apply. If the company can abrogate its contracts more or less at will by utilizing the RLA after a shell-game sham bankruptcy (Mesaba), or create an alter-ego at will towards the same goal (TSA/GoJets), the natural balance of powers in a free-market economy is crippled.

This is what makes me beat my head against a wall when people say "get another job". The stratification of incomes in the United States has been increasing for decades, but only now are we seeing the result of this stratification. The working class are becoming destitute "droogs", of essentially no redeeming social value at all, other than being warm bodies in the seats of wal-marts and burger-kings. Formerly middle class jobs (like, say, ours) are becoming working class "cash the check to make the mortgage and buy the groceries" wage-slave positions. And then, at the top, absurd salaries for "talent players" are more and more the norm. Even the polticos do not in essence dispute this. Read the numbers of H-1s issued for jobs which Americans really CAN'T do. They simply lack the will to do anything about it (or some would say the ability, given that they are beholden to the same idiot electorate that failed 5th grade and votes based on ridiculously vague "statements of purpose" and the ability to "feel their pain".) All of these problems are chickens that were hatched thirty, forty, and fifty years ago, and are only now coming home to roost.

This is why it is inane to blame "teh boosh" for the latest round of economic stratification. You might just as well blame Clinton. Or Bush. Or Reagan. Or Carter. Like all national crises, it occured in small increments, largely on ground given to win back ground lost.

What IS clear is that radical steps are required to dope-slap america out of the rapidly escalating cycle of economic self-destruction in which we find ourselves. And not just politically or economically, but morally. My own preference would be that the "moral" angle not be religiously affiliated, but rather a simple re-affirmation, from the grassroots level, that there is more beautiful and sacred about life than being able to afford (on credit, of course) the latest flat panel big screen or Lexus. If that makes me a hippie, spray me tie-dye. That's not to say that pilots oughtn't be paid well, but that what qualifies as "paid well" often has a lot more to do with quality of life than with raw numbers.

For those who believe that we live in a free market (if any of you made it this far), read DeTocqueville, a classic (and deservedly so) on the nature of our Republic. Pay particular attention to the necessity of a vibrant and thinking middle class. Then ask yourself whether, if current trends continue, the future is likely to hold more or less of one.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Rip,

Wow! Awesome post!

Finally, someone who gets it.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[HA25]

Good post Rip.. in the end, the fact that a free market is operating doesn't make it a moral outcome. Adam Smith also wrote of the "Tyranny of the Free Market" ... there is a balance.

Also, as long as the profession is being peddled by the likes of the AOPA, AirInc, ATA, and other alphabet soup aviation lobbies/interest groups as easily attainable so long as you've got $75,000 to throw at buying the privilege of dawning a pilots uniform, we'll always get bottom dwellers that either switch careers as they're board or frustrated with their current one, or directionless wonderers that decide "I can fly and make a lot of $$ at UAL one day cause my Uncle did.." as an old CFI I worked with said was his reason for going into aviation.. and these incremental additions to the supply of pilots will keep wages depressed.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Source for these numbers?

I got those numbers from here, who's source was the US Census Bureau

 

[ex j-41]

Marxist thought that the purest form of communism will happen in a capitalistic state. ie: walmart world

And i don't think Mesa or other regionals are much different than walmart. Rock bottom prices, crappy service and employees that are paid poverty wages.

 

[HA25]

Marxist thought that the purest form of communism will happen in a capitalistic state. ie: walmart world

And i don't think Mesa or other regionals are much different than walmart. Rock bottom prices, crappy service and employees that are paid poverty wages.

Nothing like calling a spade "a spade".

 

[RP170]

I got those numbers from here, who's source was the US Census Bureau

Thanks for the info.

 

[pilotyip]

Flying for a profession is still a good paying job, the average airline Captain income is solidly in the middle class. As stated here, the $100K range is doable, it is in the upper 10% of all incomes. I would dare to guess that the vast majority of those flying as Captains would be hard pressed to make the same income in some other field.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Flying for a profession is still a good paying job, the average airline Captain income is solidly in the middle class. As stated here, the $100K range is doable, it is in the upper 10% of all incomes. I would dare to guess that the vast majority of those flying as Captains would be hard pressed to make the same income in some other field.

Actually, even $80K is included in the top 10% of income, according to the Government. I think you are right about captains being hard pressed to find jobs paying the same, elsewhere. You do have your rare person making $250K working some odd job, but for the most part, what a captain at a regional makes, is what 90% or more of people in this country, holding a bachelors degree, will top out at. People aren't making as much outside of aviation, as some tend to believe; just the same as pilots aren't making as much as the general public tends to believe.

There is a difference between not making good money, and not making what you deserve. Pilots do not make bad money, they just do not make what they deserve. The only way to change that, is to fight it.

 

[HA25]

Actually, even $80K is included in the top 10% of income, according to the Government. I think you are right about captains being hard pressed to find jobs paying the same, elsewhere. You do have your rare person making $250K working some odd job, but for the most part, what a captain at a regional makes, is what 90% or more of people in this country, holding a bachelors degree, will top out at. People aren't making as much outside of aviation, as some tend to believe; just the same as pilots aren't making as much as the general public tends to believe.

There is a difference between not making good money, and not making what you deserve. Pilots do not make bad money, they just do not make what they deserve. The only way to change that, is to fight it.

Here are some salaries from friends of mine that live in my area, this is a middle class suburb of Phoenix where the average home costs $400,000 and most people are in some sort of profession.

-------------------------------
Down the street from me, senior civil engineer with Pulte Homes, age 34, BS Degree in Civil Engineering at ASU.

$121,000/yr, typical work week 45-50 hrs.
------------------------------
Across the street from my house, Amex Financial advisor, age 36, BS degree in Finance from Cal State Hayward,

$165,000/yr, typical work week 40-45 hrs, rare weekends..
------------------------------

Friends from church, he's a City planer, and she's a nurse, ages mid 30's, BS degree in Business Admin, and Nursing..

She.. $65,000/yr 36 hrs (12 hr shifts)

He... $91,000/yr 40 hrs week (3 weeks vac)

-------------------------------

Other friends from church, he's a High School principal and she's a psychologist, MA in Psychology, Ph.D Education. UofA and Ph.D. in Psychology UofA..

He... $109,000/yr 40-45 hours/week light summers
She.... $150,000/yr in a clinic / 40-50 hours week..

Just an example of some people who I consider on par with myself in terms of education/social status.



To go by these "national" numbers is meaningless... real world numbers are what matter, and these are real world.

 

[pilotyip]

averages, man averages

V70TP, you have not taken averages, you have taken selective cases. We could takes selective salaries from the airline side also and make a case those professionals you listed were under paid. Thisis still a great way to make a living.

 

[HA25]

V70TP, you have not taken averages, you have taken selective cases. We could takes selective salaries from the airline side also and make a case those professionals you listed were under paid. Thisis still a great way to make a living.

Those are all people in their mid 30's living in middle class (upper middle class some would say) areas of a middle cost of living city (Phoenix).

I would hardly say that they are on the high side of professional's in terms of pay. If you want to see that, go to the SF Bay Area, San Diego, Parts of the North East, and Florida..

In the end, it's a GREAT JOB, with crappy pay.. but we do it because it's great.. doesn't mean we should put up with the crappy pay though. We do have kids that need college, homes to pay off, and cars to keep running..

Or do you think we should all be content to live in a double wide trailer park, drive a 15 year old pickup, and tell our kids to go to the Army for college money??

 

[pilotyip]

Single wide

Go to Army for college money? Is there something wrong with serving in the military? My son served in the Army and my grandson is starting work on his appointment to the Naval Academy, and my Granddaughter is looking at NROTC at the U of Mich. I could not be prouder. BTW I lived in a single wide for my first 4 years in the Navy, saved enought for a down payment on the a nice new home. Fly becasue you.......