Airline Pilot Pay and Attitudes...

[LR25]

Top airline pay to regional pay, at what point in aviation history did it get to the point where one group of pilot were worth more than another.

At what point did a mechanic (myself) make a fraction at an airline to what the captian was making (300K).

Myself the mechanic changing the hydrualic pump in the pouring rain in the middle of the night with skydrol in my eyes with maintenance control breathing down my neck, while the 300K captian drinks coffee in the maintance office wondering whats taking so long to change the pump.

I'm not being an advocate for mechanics(allthough they deserve it) but how it that justified?

I takes years of training, hard work, experience and schooling to be a good mechanic to keep the airline going.

The same should be for all professional pilots. There are alot of good people in the left seat other than the majors flying a 767.

Now, I am not slamming the guy making 300K in the left seat of the 76, but there is a lopsided view and reality to our beloved profession.

LR25

 

[Dep676]

I don't think he is angry. Just making an observation and stating his opinion. Which I believe he is intitled to. I do kind of agree with the pay issue. Hey more power to you if you can make that kind of pay the 2 to 3 hundred grand mark. But I think they are a select few making that. Also when the companies are in trouble and may go under. I would think these people at the top pay would be willing to give up a little to help keep the company alive. Also to help their "union brothers" working. But it seems everybody is out for themselves and screw everybody else. Then they complain when they are going under and sink. The management should also give up some pay out of their FAT pockets. Just look at SWA they haven't furloughed anybody or if they did it wasn't many. And look they are still interviewing and hiring. Don't see AA, DAL, United or any of the others big ones calling people. At least from what I gather from this board anyway. The regional pay is just a absolute disgrace. I am not the only person that feels that way. But as long as you have people begging for these jobs that won't change. If some of us would stick up for are beliefs and not jump at these jobs. Maybe they regionals would have to make the pot a little sweeter. I mean when you got places like Chicago express making you pay for a smil eval. Then to start you in the high teens. Yeah let me sign up for that. NOT!!!! So if everybody really cared about their "union brothers" they would stick up for them. Instead of sticking it to them.

Just my humble opinion. Let the flames fly.

 

[JohnDoe]

I've been an active reader of this forum for about a year now, but have never posted during that time. It's getting too hard to let some of these threads go without a reply now so here it goes....


With regards to your comment on getting out of the military and not liking the "back-stabbing, petty arguments, and oversized egos" on this side (civilian) of aviation: remember that a large majority of the airline pilots you are refering to came from the MILITARY. I don't believe for a second that that kind of behavior, and other behavior used to try and get a promotion, etc. doesn't exsist in military aviation (also, I spoke with a friend of mine in the military and he laughed at the assumption that there isn't that sort of behavior
). Not saying that its right, but I also won't accept that it didn't exist in your military.

As far as the pay issue goes: Having come from a regional airline myself...I wholeheartedly agree that regional pay rates need to increase. You'll get no arguement from me there. But you touched on one of my arguements with your statement:
"As for those executives who make the millions, well, that's what is great about America......you have the freedom to pursue a career in management as well. "

Exactly!!!
Its all about CHOICE. I chose to pursue the regional airline I did FULL KNOWING what the pay was. I made that choice because I had the hopes that it would eventually help me achieve my goal of a major airline job, and it did (although 6 months after I got it, I was furloughed , but hey, I'll get recalled eventually).
I chose to become a pilot for a major airline because a) I love to fly, and b) I would like to get paid well for it. For those who are at a regional with low pay....they made the CHOICE to apply there and accept the wages, they knew what the pay would be going into it (again, I DO NOT agree with them, and yes, they should be increased). If they choose to stay at a regional for the rest of their career, well, again, that is their choice, and they need to accept the resulting pay consequences. For those who are involuntarily stuck at a regional, that is a different story.

Your statement:
"Now, nobody (not even God) could convince me that a major airline pilot deserves such a high salary."

Why are airline pilots any less deserving of their salary than any other high-paid profession in this country, especially considering the level of responsiblity, training, and constant scrutiny? Your argument about emergency room workers not getting paid enough again touches on this subject. They CHOOSE to do that job for the pay they are getting. If they don't like it, they are free to CHOOSE another career. Do they deserve more money? Without a doubt, as do alot of other professions. But if they can't get it, does that mean nobody else should? If we (airline pilots) can get paid a very nice salary for doing what we love, why do you have a problem with that? Major airlines have been able to obtain nice salaries, good for them. They worked to get those salaries. Hopefully the regionals can obtain the same thing.

As far as the ego thing goes, I have never once come across another pilot; regional, major, corporate, or otherwise, who thought they were better than somebody else just because of the job they had or equipment they flew. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they are out there, but not as wide spread as you seem to think. Why did I get called for a job at a major and all my buddies back at the regional did not?? I have no idea. Was I anymore deserving than the next guy? Probably not. I was extremely fortunate, and am very thankfull that it happened to me. I wish everybody could get their "dream" job. My "ego" is not clouding my thinking at all.

Enough rambling for my first post..............

Good luck to all in this addictive, rewarding, enjoyable, frustrating, maddening, topsy-turvy, career.

 

[Anthony]

"Anthony, you sound like an angry out-of-work Army helo guy who just discovered he's going to have to start out at the bottom of the pay scale."

Just to dispel any false conclusions about my background I will give a little more info about myself. As for being angry, definitley not so. I can truly say that I'm a satisfied customer. I enjoy almost every minute I'm alive. I have a wonderful family and am in top physical health. I can honestly say I'm one of the more satisfied people I know. As for being out of work: I spent over 12 years in the military and from that modest salary I have invested wisely I now have enough money to sustain my family for years to come without working (I don't own 3 vehicles or a house with 3 extra bedrooms). I left the military with open eyes about the civilian World and civilian aviation. I left after achieving much success only because I felt I needed to continue to broaden my horizens. And I have found out early on that it's not money that will do it. Also, I am not out of work. I have many friends who fly for airlines and all other types of aviaton related jobs. I have been all over the World and made friends with Russian pilots who fought in Afghanistan to unemployed African airline pilots. I've been around, fellas, and do have a basic understanding of what makes life worthwhile, and again, it's not money.

After rereading my posts I can understand how some of you may take my message as being offensive. I was never one to dance around my feelings and I know that in any manner of communications there is the chance of miscommunicating. My point is by having money as the end goal and constantanly comparing yourselves to other professions you will never achieve satisfaction.

I have no ill will against major pilots (among which are some of my closest friends), and I agree that most pilots I have met are good people.

What I have tried to present in my message is what I have observed. I can't seem to get away from pilots talking about that million dollar retirement (even the 18 year old ones). All the students at the local flight schools ever seem to care about is how to get to the left seat of a major airline. What is one to think when they constantly read about pilot unions trying to "one-up" each others salaries even when their respective airline is about to go bankrupt. Maybe I'm just hanging around the wrong airports.

I'm not that delusional to actually believe that one day everyone in this World will be well fed and dancing to every sunrise. I do know, though, that we all make this world what it is. It's not just those "terrible" executives, those "bad" politicians, or those "greedy" lawyers. There are always two sides to everything. And if you think pilots aren't partially responsible for the rough state of the industry, well, then you will never solve any of the problems and this crazy struggle between pilots and management will continue forever. For those of you who care to make a difference try looking at the situation from an outside perspective and you will see that "management" is not the great evil you make it out to be. They are humans too, and come from the same stock we all do. They have their side, and they all don't make the millions you think (some do). And once again, if it's lots of money that will make your life better, well, too bad for you.

During my local town council meetings I often raise topics concerning environmental protection issues like cleaning up local pollution, recycling, etc. I try to make the point that although we may have to sacrifice things in the present to make our community better in the future it will be well worth it. Do you know what most of the responses I get? Especially from the local developers. Most of the people look at me as though I'm crazy. Then they get in their SUV and drive home to water their lawn. Did I mention I live in a desert city.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not perfect. But I can honestly say that if I was making $200,000 I would be the first to accept a paycut in order to keep my company from furloughing fellow pilots. I would also expect the management to follow.

I'm sure I'll get more angry responses from some of you pilots because I may sound as though I'm trying to take food out of your mouths. Well, that isn't the case.

AJ

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

LR25,

I couldn't agree more that mechanics deserve to be very well paid. They do an excellent job, and, like pilots, have skills which are very difficult to attain.

The reasons that they do not make what they deserve are many, and probably deserve a thread of their own. However, hopefully the tide is turning a little. The NWA and UAL have won hard-fought victories, hopefully they can keep the gains they have earned, and others can build upon them.

Thanks for all you do.

 

[Anthony]

To FlyDeltasJets,

I also agree that mechanics should be paid better. And since we both agree that they are as skilled and valuable to a company as pilots should we then also agree that they should also make the big bucks. Now, if a company started to pay all those who deserve the high pay do you think that company will remain financially solvent. It seems to me that there is only so much money in the pot (especially in the airline business since they all seem to be operating on tight budgets). So if one group gets the lions share then there won't be enough to pay those well deserving mechanics. In my book pilots and mechanics are equal. What is your solution?

I am amazed that there are those who would condemn me for believing that it's right to be a little more equitable within the aviation industry regarding salary. Not once have I said major pilots need to come down to the level of the 20 year old FO at the regional.

To the person who asked what's wrong with an SUV: I use the SUV as a symbol of social irresponsibility. We all know that most owners just use them to shuttle the kids to school or pick up groceries and drive to work. Even though they get terrible gas mileage, pollute our atmosphere, and increase our dependency on the middle-east we still have those that will drive them because they feel it's their right to do whatever they please. So ask that question again "what is wrong with owning as many cars, houses, etc, etc, as possible?" Well, the next time you drive through LA in the summer and see the nasty pollution ask that question again. Or the next time you drive through the Sierra Nevedas and see miles of clear cuts ask yourself where the wood is going. Or how about the next time OPEC raises gas prices, are you going to be the first to complain. We don't live in a vacuum and how we live our lives and the resources that we consume have a broader effect then our eye-sight will let us to believe. Again, I'm not saying we all need to live just above the poverty line and be grateful. Just that I think it's reasonable to believe "equity and concern" over our struggling colleagues (and our countries resources) should come first over a selfish life style. And if you still can't put 1 and 1 together, well then your childrens generation will suffer the consequence and you can go to your grave satisfied "ya did dern good fer yer country, an ya wer a good American."

I can hear the rebuttals now......."yer a traitor, yer Unamerican. Get the rope boyz...."


As for some of you who think I haven't worked hard in aviation, you obviously don't understand what the military does. I don't have a need to justify to anyone how hard I have worked, but just to inform some of those that have an attitude towards military pilots.......let's see, spent time flying missions in Bosinia, Kosovo, Yugoslavia, South America, Africa and many other places living in nasty muddy dumps, eating nothing but mre's, being shot at etc, etc, etc. And I chose to to it (and would do it again). My father was career military and so I went in with eyes wide open......and never once regretted doing it.

AJ

 

[likeitis]

How did we get into a tree hugging conversation on a aviation board?
Where did the trees go? Well if you did the research, most experts calculate that we have more trees in N. America now than when Columbus arrived. We also have many, many more deer and other animals than in the past. I'm all for conserving things but this knee jerk reaction that some of these envirowackos gets a little ridiculous.

 

[Steve]

I'd have to agree. That 300K sounds like al ote now, but wait till Uncle Sam gets his cut. You quickely find out whi is paying the 2 Billion for those fancy B-2'S

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Anthony,

Dont you think that the person who is responsible for the lives of hundreds of people and is entrusted with hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment and liability should be compensated, say, ........
about half what your F'n dentist makes????

The army rotted your brain, 80K a year goes real far when you live off the taxpayers, but you are joining the real world now, no more living in tents.

"I could live like a KING on $80,000 a year"

Im sure you can.......................................

 

[TurboS7]

If you can live like a king on 80K in CA tell me where it is so I can move there right now. I make about 86K have a wife and 7 kids and we are barely making it in S. Florida......

 

[darling pretty]

hey MS Fan

Just to enlighten you a little on your medicine to pilots comparison.

You are absolutely right that a surgeon can only kill one at a time while you can kill hundreds; however with a fair (notice I didn't say great or even good) lawyer and the crap for brains juries we have currently, that one death can spell more money than a planeful of people. Surgeons too are only mistake away from losing their license.

Last time I looked I wasn't having to pay any pilot error insurance other than my ALPA dues which don't break my bank. OB/GYN docs pay in excess of $100K for malpractice insurance EACH YEAR.

Each profession has it's rewards and pitfalls, but save the comparisons, you sound like Tom Daschle and his class warfare is good agenda.

 

[Anthony]

GulfStream 200,

Do you think the mechanic who fixed the engine on your plane is any less responsible for the lives on your plane. Where is his 200K.

You wrote: "The army rotted your brain, 80K a year goes real far when you live off the taxpayers, but you are joining the real world now, no more living in tents."

Wow! With comments like that I feel like I'm conversing with kindergarden children. Why don't you tell me what the REAL World is like. Buddy, I feel sorry for anyone who works with you.


Turbo S7,

It's not where you live, it's how you live. I don't have 7 kids so I can't help you there.


Likeitis,

Better put some sunscreen on your neck, it's gettin a little RED!!


It's funny (and sad) how so many people seem to think they can solve all the Worlds problems by blaming others.

AJ

 

[nightrider]

You are definitely from another planet. First let me say this. 1.) I agree that regional airline pilot deserve more money, I can say this because I was one for 5 yrs. 2.) A major airline pilot deserves at least 200-300k a year. Just because you don't have what it takes to get the job, don't bash others because they do.

When one of us flies a trip for our company it generates a great amount of capital. We deserve to be well compensated for it. We as a profession are one of the few that have to pass a physical every 6 months, and pass a requalificaiton checkride every 6 months. We could lose it all at any time therefore we get what we deserve. I believe we should have more.

 

[Anthony]

Nightrider

And that is why your companies are going broke, because they have too many selfish pilots working for them. Someone recently sent me a private post that was fitting, "Many Airline pilots can't see the forest through the trees."

Obviously you haven't heard of SouthWest Airlines. I believe their pilots are relatively content.

UAL pilots seem to want to "cut off their legs to save their finger."

Why do you say I am from another planet? Don't they have unselfish pilots here on Earth.

AJ

 

[nightrider]

I can tell you for a fact my companies health, is excellent. We made almost a billion profit this quarter.

Thanks for your concern.