Airline Pilot Pay and Attitudes...

[bobbysamd]

Unhappy airline pilots

I dunno about that one. My wife and I took a brief trip last month. It was my first opportunity to speak with real-live airline pilots since I joined this board. I talked with some Continental pilots who seemed perfectly content. One seemed preoccupied with his commute from Denver to his Newark domicile. I talked briefly with a Great Lakes pilot whom I pictured as being a former student, and he seemed happy.

There's no doubt the pay, benies and lines are great as you accrue seniority. Nothing wrong with that. As Gershwin said, nice work if you can get it, and you can get it if you try. I'd bet that flying the 1900 to Presque Isle on a nice fall day at sunset is glorious.

 

[EAP]

Anthony, I guess it's as simple as this. Become an airline pilot, make it to a major airline or a big regional - stay around for a while to observe without predjudice - and then you will be in more of a position to judge how "hard" the job is. Until then I think you are judging more on perception than reality.

By the way, dentists have the highest rate of alcoholism and suicide, as well as depression. Doctors are right up there with that, and airline pilots are higher than average like you said. Maybe it's because there is more invloved than you think? (BTW, not a "slam" on medecine. I've also flown air ambulence, and being an airline pilot is much more involved in my experience - apples to oranges)

Personally, I've never failed a checkride and things have come very easy for me too, technically speaking. The art of flying is the easy part of our job though.

I still say being an airline pilot is one of the most challenging jobs you can have, because like I said before, it takes more than a few procedures to be a competent airline pilot. Managing complex real life situations that affect thousands of peoples lives, your co-workers, your company, and even your own profession will test your salesmanship, customer service, people skills, and creativity to say the least. In the real world people don't take orders, you have to create an environment where you can effectively lead and you do it over, every day. This isn't just a matter of manipulating the controls and following a plan, it's a wholistic approach that more mirrors the job of an aviation attorney and airline manager - all in one - who also flys. This is just as true of my experience when I was a regional pilot versus being a major airline pilot. Any pilot worth hiring will constantly improve and get better every single year. Complacency has no place in our profession.

-Originally posted by Anthony-
"As for those executives who make the millions, well, that's what is great about America......you have the freedom to pursue a career in management as well. Just be prepared to work straight from 05-2000 every day, six days every week (and don't forget to get good medical insurance to cover all those stress related illnesses you'll be getting). "

I don't understand, it's okay for management to work hard and get paid millions per year and not for major airline pilots to get a small fraction of that pay? And, is it no okay for airline pilots to enjoy their days off doing what they please? What do you expect us to do, talk about holding patterns and other elementary aspects of the job all day? Truth be told, a lot does get discussed about the industry amongst airline pilot friends while golfing and skiing, just ask my wife. She hates it when airline pilot friends and I start talking "shop" so I try to be a well balanced person and talk about "normal" things when I'm not at work. As for the 2 SUV's and a sports car, and mothers, teachers and social workers not getting their fair piece of the pie - I believe your issue is with the capalistic sytem civilians operate under, not airline pilots.

Who do you feel is "holding down" the regional pilot pay? It seems you somehow think management wants to pay them handsomely and the pilots at the majors are saying, "no mr. CFO, you can't do that." I'm sorry, but I don't buy your line of thinking here at all. Pay rates are made possible by profit yeilds. Think of airplanes as stadiums where two performers get a cut on each ticket sold. A big stadium will pull in more money for 2 performers, and the performers get paid better. A small stadium with the same overhead costs to clear will not pull in as much.

Anthony, I believe you will have as promising of a future as the effort you put in, but I have to honestly say try as hard as you can to observe and learn from others and ALWAYS be in a learning mode. I'm not saying believe what I or anyone in particular says, just take in what you will, and try to always give every angle due consideration. That more than anything will prepare you for a real career in aviation.

 

[SpeedBird]

Furloboy:

I don't share your view that Anthony is "angry."

I think he is just sharing his heart-felt opinon about how he views our profession at this moment in time. I applaud his courage to speak his mind on a subject that can stir some pretty passionate emotions. Some of what he say strikes a cord within me, and at the same time I disagree with other aspects of his comments.

Anthony:

As you mentioned in your reference to working for management. I knew the rules of the game going in, and despite the risks and apparent inequitities, I tossed my hat into the ring anyway.

While many of us demand fairness in all aspects of your lives, there is rarely a case when it happens with any regularity. And it definitely is not guaranteed in our "civilized" society. What an airline pilot (or surgeon, or professional athlete) earns is not based on fairness, but on what is earned through negotiation, and to a lesser degree the "barriers to entry" as a professionally-trained aviator at the top of the food-chain.

If you want to fly airplanes as a career. I think you've got to first accept within yourself the simple fact that you can't change by yourself how the business operates, or what motivates people in general to do what they do.

If you truly love to fly, these issues will square themselves internally. If you can't do that, then I sincerely recommend that you look for something else in life that give you that peace of mind. It is true, work at something you truly love and have a passion for. It will make the difference when you realize that no matter what you do, there will be some dirty little secret about it that makes you second guess your decision.

Good luck.

[edited for excessive profanity ]

 

[de727ups]

Anthony....

I have better things to do this fine Saturday morning besides writing a book to refute your post. I'll just say....try walking a mile in a guys shoes before you blast him....you obviously havent....

 

[Boeingman]

Anthony:

I can assure you if you join the ranks of the majors you will not complain about the pay and benefits.

 

[LR25]

Top airline pay to regional pay, at what point in aviation history did it get to the point where one group of pilot were worth more than another.

At what point did a mechanic (myself) make a fraction at an airline to what the captian was making (300K).

Myself the mechanic changing the hydrualic pump in the pouring rain in the middle of the night with skydrol in my eyes with maintenance control breathing down my neck, while the 300K captian drinks coffee in the maintance office wondering whats taking so long to change the pump.

I'm not being an advocate for mechanics(allthough they deserve it) but how it that justified?

I takes years of training, hard work, experience and schooling to be a good mechanic to keep the airline going.

The same should be for all professional pilots. There are alot of good people in the left seat other than the majors flying a 767.

Now, I am not slamming the guy making 300K in the left seat of the 76, but there is a lopsided view and reality to our beloved profession.

LR25

 

[Dep676]

I don't think he is angry. Just making an observation and stating his opinion. Which I believe he is intitled to. I do kind of agree with the pay issue. Hey more power to you if you can make that kind of pay the 2 to 3 hundred grand mark. But I think they are a select few making that. Also when the companies are in trouble and may go under. I would think these people at the top pay would be willing to give up a little to help keep the company alive. Also to help their "union brothers" working. But it seems everybody is out for themselves and screw everybody else. Then they complain when they are going under and sink. The management should also give up some pay out of their FAT pockets. Just look at SWA they haven't furloughed anybody or if they did it wasn't many. And look they are still interviewing and hiring. Don't see AA, DAL, United or any of the others big ones calling people. At least from what I gather from this board anyway. The regional pay is just a absolute disgrace. I am not the only person that feels that way. But as long as you have people begging for these jobs that won't change. If some of us would stick up for are beliefs and not jump at these jobs. Maybe they regionals would have to make the pot a little sweeter. I mean when you got places like Chicago express making you pay for a smil eval. Then to start you in the high teens. Yeah let me sign up for that. NOT!!!! So if everybody really cared about their "union brothers" they would stick up for them. Instead of sticking it to them.

Just my humble opinion. Let the flames fly.

 

[JohnDoe]

I've been an active reader of this forum for about a year now, but have never posted during that time. It's getting too hard to let some of these threads go without a reply now so here it goes....


With regards to your comment on getting out of the military and not liking the "back-stabbing, petty arguments, and oversized egos" on this side (civilian) of aviation: remember that a large majority of the airline pilots you are refering to came from the MILITARY. I don't believe for a second that that kind of behavior, and other behavior used to try and get a promotion, etc. doesn't exsist in military aviation (also, I spoke with a friend of mine in the military and he laughed at the assumption that there isn't that sort of behavior
). Not saying that its right, but I also won't accept that it didn't exist in your military.

As far as the pay issue goes: Having come from a regional airline myself...I wholeheartedly agree that regional pay rates need to increase. You'll get no arguement from me there. But you touched on one of my arguements with your statement:
"As for those executives who make the millions, well, that's what is great about America......you have the freedom to pursue a career in management as well. "

Exactly!!!
Its all about CHOICE. I chose to pursue the regional airline I did FULL KNOWING what the pay was. I made that choice because I had the hopes that it would eventually help me achieve my goal of a major airline job, and it did (although 6 months after I got it, I was furloughed , but hey, I'll get recalled eventually).
I chose to become a pilot for a major airline because a) I love to fly, and b) I would like to get paid well for it. For those who are at a regional with low pay....they made the CHOICE to apply there and accept the wages, they knew what the pay would be going into it (again, I DO NOT agree with them, and yes, they should be increased). If they choose to stay at a regional for the rest of their career, well, again, that is their choice, and they need to accept the resulting pay consequences. For those who are involuntarily stuck at a regional, that is a different story.

Your statement:
"Now, nobody (not even God) could convince me that a major airline pilot deserves such a high salary."

Why are airline pilots any less deserving of their salary than any other high-paid profession in this country, especially considering the level of responsiblity, training, and constant scrutiny? Your argument about emergency room workers not getting paid enough again touches on this subject. They CHOOSE to do that job for the pay they are getting. If they don't like it, they are free to CHOOSE another career. Do they deserve more money? Without a doubt, as do alot of other professions. But if they can't get it, does that mean nobody else should? If we (airline pilots) can get paid a very nice salary for doing what we love, why do you have a problem with that? Major airlines have been able to obtain nice salaries, good for them. They worked to get those salaries. Hopefully the regionals can obtain the same thing.

As far as the ego thing goes, I have never once come across another pilot; regional, major, corporate, or otherwise, who thought they were better than somebody else just because of the job they had or equipment they flew. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they are out there, but not as wide spread as you seem to think. Why did I get called for a job at a major and all my buddies back at the regional did not?? I have no idea. Was I anymore deserving than the next guy? Probably not. I was extremely fortunate, and am very thankfull that it happened to me. I wish everybody could get their "dream" job. My "ego" is not clouding my thinking at all.

Enough rambling for my first post..............

Good luck to all in this addictive, rewarding, enjoyable, frustrating, maddening, topsy-turvy, career.

 

[Anthony]

"Anthony, you sound like an angry out-of-work Army helo guy who just discovered he's going to have to start out at the bottom of the pay scale."

Just to dispel any false conclusions about my background I will give a little more info about myself. As for being angry, definitley not so. I can truly say that I'm a satisfied customer. I enjoy almost every minute I'm alive. I have a wonderful family and am in top physical health. I can honestly say I'm one of the more satisfied people I know. As for being out of work: I spent over 12 years in the military and from that modest salary I have invested wisely I now have enough money to sustain my family for years to come without working (I don't own 3 vehicles or a house with 3 extra bedrooms). I left the military with open eyes about the civilian World and civilian aviation. I left after achieving much success only because I felt I needed to continue to broaden my horizens. And I have found out early on that it's not money that will do it. Also, I am not out of work. I have many friends who fly for airlines and all other types of aviaton related jobs. I have been all over the World and made friends with Russian pilots who fought in Afghanistan to unemployed African airline pilots. I've been around, fellas, and do have a basic understanding of what makes life worthwhile, and again, it's not money.

After rereading my posts I can understand how some of you may take my message as being offensive. I was never one to dance around my feelings and I know that in any manner of communications there is the chance of miscommunicating. My point is by having money as the end goal and constantanly comparing yourselves to other professions you will never achieve satisfaction.

I have no ill will against major pilots (among which are some of my closest friends), and I agree that most pilots I have met are good people.

What I have tried to present in my message is what I have observed. I can't seem to get away from pilots talking about that million dollar retirement (even the 18 year old ones). All the students at the local flight schools ever seem to care about is how to get to the left seat of a major airline. What is one to think when they constantly read about pilot unions trying to "one-up" each others salaries even when their respective airline is about to go bankrupt. Maybe I'm just hanging around the wrong airports.

I'm not that delusional to actually believe that one day everyone in this World will be well fed and dancing to every sunrise. I do know, though, that we all make this world what it is. It's not just those "terrible" executives, those "bad" politicians, or those "greedy" lawyers. There are always two sides to everything. And if you think pilots aren't partially responsible for the rough state of the industry, well, then you will never solve any of the problems and this crazy struggle between pilots and management will continue forever. For those of you who care to make a difference try looking at the situation from an outside perspective and you will see that "management" is not the great evil you make it out to be. They are humans too, and come from the same stock we all do. They have their side, and they all don't make the millions you think (some do). And once again, if it's lots of money that will make your life better, well, too bad for you.

During my local town council meetings I often raise topics concerning environmental protection issues like cleaning up local pollution, recycling, etc. I try to make the point that although we may have to sacrifice things in the present to make our community better in the future it will be well worth it. Do you know what most of the responses I get? Especially from the local developers. Most of the people look at me as though I'm crazy. Then they get in their SUV and drive home to water their lawn. Did I mention I live in a desert city.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not perfect. But I can honestly say that if I was making $200,000 I would be the first to accept a paycut in order to keep my company from furloughing fellow pilots. I would also expect the management to follow.

I'm sure I'll get more angry responses from some of you pilots because I may sound as though I'm trying to take food out of your mouths. Well, that isn't the case.

AJ

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

LR25,

I couldn't agree more that mechanics deserve to be very well paid. They do an excellent job, and, like pilots, have skills which are very difficult to attain.

The reasons that they do not make what they deserve are many, and probably deserve a thread of their own. However, hopefully the tide is turning a little. The NWA and UAL have won hard-fought victories, hopefully they can keep the gains they have earned, and others can build upon them.

Thanks for all you do.