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Airline Pilot Pay and Attitudes...

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Anthony's remarks about environmental issues shows thought and concern. I have been to other parts of the world as well.

Someone called environmentalists "envirowackos". How mature.... NOT!

While I'm not a tree hugger, we do have only one planet on which to live, and we all have a responsibility to manage it properly.

I flew for a 135 operator in Maine and saw the devastating effects of clear-cutting. Huge areas of forests were destroyed.

Yes, there are problems with the way the environment has been managed, in a variety of ways, both from polluters and people who allow deer overpopulation to occur. Name-calling does not solve these kinds of problems or issues.
 
Anthony:

Kudos to you if this is the lifestyle you feel is right for you and yours. Personally, I am making a killing financially with my side business and I don't regret every penny I make at CAL. Why?

To give my family the best of everything. If you want to have your's live on 80K a year...... fine. However don't try and make others feel guilty about their success be it financial or with a career.

80K, sheesh, thats not even half of what I paid in taxes last year.
 
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Do you think the mechanic who fixed the engine on your plane is any less responsible for the lives on your plane. Where is his 200K.

Pilots make more money than mechanics for one simple reason. When the pilot screws up, the pilot is dead. When the mechanic screws up, the pilot is dead.
 
....time to go missed....

Anthony originally posted -
"And that is why your companies are going broke, because they have too many selfish pilots working for them. Someone recently sent me a private post that was fitting, "Many Airline pilots can't see the forest through the trees."

I wish you could save the sweeping comments for subjects you actually have first hand experience with. The second and third hand (questionable at best) information regurgitation and broad brush comments detract from your thoughtful intentions.
:confused:
 
EAP

Good advise. I do believe it's time to go missed.... I sense that I'm getting a bit irritated at having so many responses from folks who think money is the only bottom line. My last comment was a bit raw and I apologize.

I'm curious to know what the responses would be if I posted a message on a lawyers board advocating a little restraint on their high commissions (which I know everyone of you guys would agree can be a bit excessive). It would probably be similar to taking a baseball bat to a hornets nest.

Best of luck to you all, AJ
 
Red Ink

In case no one's noticed... Life is not fair.

What people get paid realy has absolutely nothing to do with how "hard", "skilled", "dangerous" thier job is. I know a person who answers a phone for a living (taking messages), who makes more than me.

As far as the point that regional pay sucks A$$, you are right.

Mechanic's pay. That's a sin too. (Again, read line one) Right now most wrench monkey's make more than me.

I really don't have a beef with airline pilots making gobs of money because chances are they spent many years NOT making a living wage, paying dues.

By my tally; flight training, aviation college, CFI pay, crappy 135 pay... I'm about 500,000 short of what any sane person with a degree would have made/not spent to work for a living.

Here's the kicker; I really don't care that much. I love to fly and still think I'm winning because I get to fly five days a week. Financially, I'm still a loser, but the fun meter in the green.

Blue skies
 
Come on!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dointime writes:
Quote:

"Pilots make more money than mechanics for one simple reason. When the pilot screws up, the pilot is dead. When the mechanic screws up, the pilot is dead."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Do you have any concept of what a mechanics mindset is when he twists that last piece of safety wire and turns that last fastsner on the panel before he puts a pen to the logbook?

I happen to think of the 3 people in the front (freighter) that are depending on me to do the right thing.

I have gone trough more training to be able to fix, troubleshoot, diagnose, test successfully on a particular airplane than it has to get typed on it.

I toil, break my back, freeze my arse off, fingers smashed, skydrol ingestion, JET-A baths, heck, I can come up with alot more I guess. Yes, my arse dont get in most of them when I do turn that last fastsner, but my expertise, knowledge, professionalism, and knowhow is no different from the guy that puts the seatbelt on.

Plus, I have to pull the gearpin and hook the torque links together before they can even taxi, I guess I can always call the company and tell them to give me a raise before I let the airplane go, HEHE.

But seriously folks, I flyem full-time now and still work on them part-time, I been in both worlds of the airline biz, everybody involved deserves a piece of the pie.

It is a good feeling to get off from work from a long trip, and on my days off go and fixem, I don't even mind if its raining, my roots are firmly planted.

Heck, I have to, I work for a regional you know.

LR25
 
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Anthony,

yeah, guess some of my comments can be childish.....thats OK.

Just a little sick of your types who cry about life not being fair for the starving in Africa, etc...
I truly dont give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, dont live in Africa, never will. Food dont grow in arid sand. WAKE UP.

You truly have no clue about this business if you honestly think pilots are overpaid. If a guy or gal makes it that 250K cushy job and can sit there a few years, good for them...they probably got furloughed, etc...more than a few times getting there...Uncle Sam will take his 40% to support your issues about spotted owls and tree-cutting.....dont you worry.

just another wanna be who thinks its some great "privelage" to fly an aiplane.......

Just what we need in this business.
 
Gulfstream 200

Woke up this morning and decided to check this thread one last time......again disapointment.

Again, I don't condemn those who make large salaries. If a company can aford to pay a pilot a million dollars every week, heck, I'm all for that. My observation, however, is that most of those companies can't. And I don't understand how the one-ups-manship between pilots from UAL, DAL, etc, will help their cause or their respective companies, especially when they seem to be financially strapped.

About life being not fair......that is absolutely true. And I'm not on an unrealistic crusade to make it that way. And I don't wake up in the morning crying about those in Africa. I do, however, care about my fellow humans (all people) and will share what I have to help others........even you, my friend.

Your comment about not growing food in the desert is interesting and wise. Does that also apply to LA, SLC, ELP and all the other desert cities in this country that don't have their own water supply. Does that also apply to the U.S., who, by the way consumes over 50% of the Worlds basic resources (oil, lumber, etc), but only comprise less than 10% of the Worlds population. I don't consider myself a tree-hugger, just a responsible citizen.

I wouldn't dictate to anyone how they should live their life because I wouldn't want to be dictated to. I do, however, believe that common sense, restraint, and social responsiblitiy apply in many circumstances. If I,m about to step in a hole I would hope there would be someone there who cared enough to warn me, and not wait until I fell in then steal all my possessions. If they want them that bad I'm willing to share.

Believe it or not, I care about this country and want to see it thrive forever. Believe me, it won't if we continue to foster selfishness. I'm talking about the "I got mine, so screw you!" attitude.

If I ever end up working for one of the large airline companies I certainly would never fight against my fellow pilot or cross a picket-line. I also wouldn't hurt the company I work for, even if the few top execs are raking in over a million annually. I realize that one can't always have their cake and eat it, and one must take a stance sometimes. These are moments that require CREATIVE thinking and unconventional problem solving skills. Not moments where battle lines need to be drawn in the sand.

I realize I haven't walked in your shoes, but do you need to walk in Martin Luther King's shoes to understand the plight of the Black American in the 50's/60's. Do you need to walk in the shoes of a homeless person to understand their condition. For any person with a little World experience and open mind that's not necessary. One can extrapolate.

One last comment about your attitude towards military aviators. Do you truly believe that we have leached off the taxpayers. That hurts. I would like you to tell that to my two dead brothers who were shot down in their CH-47 in Afghanistan last month while they were protecting the freedom you enjoy. Tell them that the bullets that killed them weren't real because they weren't living in the REAL World. I guess the President and all other government workers are leaches as well.

My friend, for the sake of the airline industry and this country, I pray there aren't many like you.

AJ
 
I'm not going to talk about pilot's attitudes, tree hugging or respect for military aviators. Instead, I'm going to talk about the myth of the 250k per year airline pilot.

How many of these are there? From reading the newspapers (and this board), one would believe that ALL major airline pilots make this kind of money. Nothing could be further from the truth.

First of all, approximately half of all pilots are First or Second Officers. Top pay for a copilot flying a widebody with twelve years of longevity is around $150 an hour. Multiply that by 75 hours per month and 12 months a year equals 135k per year. There, that covers half the pilots, and how many 12 year widebody FOs are there? Most FOs and SOs have less than 12 years longevity and are flying smaller equipment that pays less. A five year FO at Continental makes $100 an hour or $90k per year.

How about the 250-300k captain? I remember when UAL reached a tentative agreement with its pilots. The headlines screamed of pilots making $324 per hour. Guess what. That rate was for a 12 year 747-400 Captain at the last pay raise in the contract (May 2004). Heck, by 2004 UAL may not be flying many 747-400s. I have seen five of them parked at Victorville. Yes, that works out to 290k + but that is only for a handful of high seniority captains. The rest typically fly smaller equipment or work for other airlines that pay considerably less. A ten year Captain on the 737-800 at Continental makes $176 per hour or $158k per year.

The above are for those working at the large majors. Pilots working for airlines like Air Tran, ATA, Frontier, Spirit, Vanguard, etc. are paid considerably less than their counterparts at the majors. A $200k salary for pilots is unattainable at these airlines.

You can scream about the $250-300k pilots all you want, but realize that those who make amount are a small fraction of all airline pilots.

Finally, you must realize that all airline pilots are forced to retire at age 60. Thus, career earning potential is reduced over those in other careers who can work as long as they are physically able.
 
Anthony

I warned you at the beginning of this thread. Now you've seen it for yourself.

America's new god is the dollar. Honesty, integrity, morality, respect for self, respect for humanity, justice for all, and all those other "old fashioned" cliches (values) on which our Republic was founded are pase', outdated, unpopular, etc., etc. Most of the "new generation" doesn't even know how we got here and doesn't give a d**n about where we might be tomorrow. In today's world it's all about instant gratification. I want it all and I want it now, to h**l with you.

People like you were once a majority in this country and the ideals you preach were once its foundtion. That is no longer the case. Pronounce those ideals today and you will be vilified, chastised and if possible banished. Just read the replies you got and you have the evidence.

We have a new credo and it is no longer life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is "get rich now" and by god ($$$) do whaterver you can to whomever you can to get there. When you do get there, step on those that remain on the lower rungs of the ladder for if they climb higher it will surely be at your expense. Lie, cheat, steal if you have to; as long as you get there, who cares how you did it.

If you're old enough you may remember this: "The old gray mare ain't what she used to be."

Good luck to you and thank you sincerely for your service to our country. Just don't be surprised when the popularity of 9-11 wears off and you begin to get the same treatment that we gave to those who sacrificed in Viet Nam or you're fogotten like those who died in Korea.

The dream is dead, the $$$ is King. Worship his golden image or be cast out.

Sayonara.
 
I make about 90K per year max with OT and day off pay. Benifits for me are paid for but I have to pay extra to cover my family, but they are tax deductable. My pay is based on 70 hours per month and to do that you work about 10 days per month. My base salary if you want to call it is 78K for a six year captain topping out at 105K for a 12 year captain. Ironically the standard that we used when we negociated our contract were two carriers that are no longer with us. I hope that we are not the third. Anyhow I have about 13 years left to fly before I am 60. I have penciled going the major airline route, 5 to 7 years as FO then going to junior captain. When it is all said and done I will make about another 200K gross salary over what I am now. Plus I have to fly as FO. I just flew a trip as FO the other day as we were short, what a pain, being a captain is the only way to go. I agree with Boeingman the secrect is using the time off to develop some other business to keep you going, especially after retirement. Are airline pilots's overpaid-no they are not. Most vp's of Fortune 500 companies make over 6 figures easy. I can make one decision, even a simple one, that can make or break the company. As Boeing man stated the averge airline pilot makes about 130K per year as FO and usually makes captain the last 10 years of his/her tenure. There are a lot of wild stories out there about guys making captain in two, three or 5 years but they will look in to history as the exception. Just 15 years ago at UAL, EAL, Panam, and others it was taking 20 years just to make captain. I believe that those days are here again. I would much rather be a captain with a little salary and a little airplane(738) then to be a FO with the same salary in a big airplane. My own personal preference, basically for as long as it last I am happy where I am at. Cheers. Yes I have also been to the uttermost and as American's we are very, very lucky people, we live in Disneyland.
 
Surplus1 and Anthony,

I could not have said it better. Excellent remarks about the selfishness that is hurting our country today.

I would be honored to have either of you in my aircraft someday.

Fly safe,

Kilomike
 
I think the prevailing sentiment in this country is, "Everyone is overpaid except ME!" I do not know what the preoccupation is with why this or that movie star makes $20 mil per movie or A Rod gets $200+ mil to hit a small ball with a wood club, but it certainly generates a lot of attention.
 
AJ,

I got out of the Army a few years ago and now work for Comair. Let me tell you my perspective has changed dramatically since then. I once felt as you did on the subject, but learned that my Army life was a bit sterile compared to the civilian world. In the Army you always knew you had a job and a paycheck. In this industry that can change in an instant. Just ask some of the folks on this board if you don't believe me.

Without trying to compare our profession to doctors, lawyers or whomever, ours is unique. When you consider that a lifetime of earning say 80k per year from college graduation to indefinitely by most other professions and that your average lifetime earnings as an airline pilot is actually much less when you spend years and years making something around 18k and then your "chicken done" at age 60.

Don't be fooled into thinking the airlines are hurting as badly as they might have you believe. The media has a great way of making everything sound like dire staights. I know this because I wear my ALPA pin with star (struck), as proudly as I wore my combat patch on my right shoulder on active duty. Comair or should I say Delta lost hundreds of millions of dollars just to prove a point. To them (management) I'm sure it was money well spent. If they took that same lost money and spent a third of it on what we were asking for it could have been all over with before it even started. The media made statements like "If the pilots don't except this contract, they will bankrupt the airline!". Hell even the Wall Street analyst fell for it and joined in. It was all unequvically FALSE! 9-11 was a major tragedy and extreme loss for many, but don't buy into the sky is falling theory too quickly. One thing I learned is that it wasn't what they could afford, but what they can control instead. When the top brass at an airline turn down their multi-million dollar bonuses every quarter or better yet their exorbinant salaries for a few pay periods then and only then should it's minority of highly paid pilots be expected to do the same. Isn't that fair?

I truly love what I do, but love for a profession doesn't put food in my kids mouths or send them to college.

Time to think outside the box (unless your taking your inst. APART in the sim).

fly safe! WHOOOWHAAA!
 

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