Airline Pilot Pay and Attitudes...

[surplus1]

Anthony

I warned you at the beginning of this thread. Now you've seen it for yourself.

America's new god is the dollar. Honesty, integrity, morality, respect for self, respect for humanity, justice for all, and all those other "old fashioned" cliches (values) on which our Republic was founded are pase', outdated, unpopular, etc., etc. Most of the "new generation" doesn't even know how we got here and doesn't give a d**n about where we might be tomorrow. In today's world it's all about instant gratification. I want it all and I want it now, to h**l with you.

People like you were once a majority in this country and the ideals you preach were once its foundtion. That is no longer the case. Pronounce those ideals today and you will be vilified, chastised and if possible banished. Just read the replies you got and you have the evidence.

We have a new credo and it is no longer life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is "get rich now" and by god ($$$) do whaterver you can to whomever you can to get there. When you do get there, step on those that remain on the lower rungs of the ladder for if they climb higher it will surely be at your expense. Lie, cheat, steal if you have to; as long as you get there, who cares how you did it.

If you're old enough you may remember this: "The old gray mare ain't what she used to be."

Good luck to you and thank you sincerely for your service to our country. Just don't be surprised when the popularity of 9-11 wears off and you begin to get the same treatment that we gave to those who sacrificed in Viet Nam or you're fogotten like those who died in Korea.

The dream is dead, the $$$ is King. Worship his golden image or be cast out.

Sayonara.

 

[TurboS7]

I make about 90K per year max with OT and day off pay. Benifits for me are paid for but I have to pay extra to cover my family, but they are tax deductable. My pay is based on 70 hours per month and to do that you work about 10 days per month. My base salary if you want to call it is 78K for a six year captain topping out at 105K for a 12 year captain. Ironically the standard that we used when we negociated our contract were two carriers that are no longer with us. I hope that we are not the third. Anyhow I have about 13 years left to fly before I am 60. I have penciled going the major airline route, 5 to 7 years as FO then going to junior captain. When it is all said and done I will make about another 200K gross salary over what I am now. Plus I have to fly as FO. I just flew a trip as FO the other day as we were short, what a pain, being a captain is the only way to go. I agree with Boeingman the secrect is using the time off to develop some other business to keep you going, especially after retirement. Are airline pilots's overpaid-no they are not. Most vp's of Fortune 500 companies make over 6 figures easy. I can make one decision, even a simple one, that can make or break the company. As Boeing man stated the averge airline pilot makes about 130K per year as FO and usually makes captain the last 10 years of his/her tenure. There are a lot of wild stories out there about guys making captain in two, three or 5 years but they will look in to history as the exception. Just 15 years ago at UAL, EAL, Panam, and others it was taking 20 years just to make captain. I believe that those days are here again. I would much rather be a captain with a little salary and a little airplane(738) then to be a FO with the same salary in a big airplane. My own personal preference, basically for as long as it last I am happy where I am at. Cheers. Yes I have also been to the uttermost and as American's we are very, very lucky people, we live in Disneyland.

 

[kilomike]

Surplus1 and Anthony,

I could not have said it better. Excellent remarks about the selfishness that is hurting our country today.

I would be honored to have either of you in my aircraft someday.

Fly safe,

Kilomike

 

[FlyComAirJets]

I think the prevailing sentiment in this country is, "Everyone is overpaid except ME!" I do not know what the preoccupation is with why this or that movie star makes $20 mil per movie or A Rod gets $200+ mil to hit a small ball with a wood club, but it certainly generates a lot of attention.

 

[JetLee]

AJ,

I got out of the Army a few years ago and now work for Comair. Let me tell you my perspective has changed dramatically since then. I once felt as you did on the subject, but learned that my Army life was a bit sterile compared to the civilian world. In the Army you always knew you had a job and a paycheck. In this industry that can change in an instant. Just ask some of the folks on this board if you don't believe me.

Without trying to compare our profession to doctors, lawyers or whomever, ours is unique. When you consider that a lifetime of earning say 80k per year from college graduation to indefinitely by most other professions and that your average lifetime earnings as an airline pilot is actually much less when you spend years and years making something around 18k and then your "chicken done" at age 60.

Don't be fooled into thinking the airlines are hurting as badly as they might have you believe. The media has a great way of making everything sound like dire staights. I know this because I wear my ALPA pin with star (struck), as proudly as I wore my combat patch on my right shoulder on active duty. Comair or should I say Delta lost hundreds of millions of dollars just to prove a point. To them (management) I'm sure it was money well spent. If they took that same lost money and spent a third of it on what we were asking for it could have been all over with before it even started. The media made statements like "If the pilots don't except this contract, they will bankrupt the airline!". Hell even the Wall Street analyst fell for it and joined in. It was all unequvically FALSE! 9-11 was a major tragedy and extreme loss for many, but don't buy into the sky is falling theory too quickly. One thing I learned is that it wasn't what they could afford, but what they can control instead. When the top brass at an airline turn down their multi-million dollar bonuses every quarter or better yet their exorbinant salaries for a few pay periods then and only then should it's minority of highly paid pilots be expected to do the same. Isn't that fair?

I truly love what I do, but love for a profession doesn't put food in my kids mouths or send them to college.

Time to think outside the box (unless your taking your inst. APART in the sim).

fly safe! WHOOOWHAAA!

 

[HvyjetFO]

Anthony,

I don't complain about what you make for a living, so don't complain about what I make. If I offered you my annual salary, I'm presuming you'd decline as it is too much money?

FWIW, many of us progressed up the civilian route flight instructing, cargo hauling, and commuters. We got paid crap, flew a ton, and loved every minute of it. Yes, the commuters need to get paid more - no question. In fact, if we could reduce the disparity in pay between majors and commuters we'd all have better job security. However, I am quite sure I deserve the pay I earn at the airline I work for, as I have paid my dues in spades.

Hvy

 

[ksu_aviator]

Just to kind of get back on to the subject of Regional pay V Major pay...

Regional pilots don't get paid nearly as much not because they don't have the same responsibilities and liability but because they don't have the same experience or generate nearly as much revenue.

Lets say passengers pay $500 for a flight.

If that flight is on a CRJ (50 seat) that flight brings in $25,000 full

If that flight is on a 757 can hold 201 to 231 passengers and that would generate $100,500 to 115,500 for that flight.

Granted the above is relying 100% capacity, but I think you get the idea. A CRJ or any other regional aircraft just doesn't generate the revenue that a large jet does.

I know I over simplified this, there a lot of other factors that go into the revenue generated by an aircraft, I was just trying to illustrate why regional pilots are paid very little. This isn't to say that they are paid properly, just that they will never be paid the equivlant of a major.

The Angry Statement
All you left wing commie pinko fags that think everyone should do according to the abilities and recieve according to their needs need to pack up and move to China. Socialism has no place in the USA!
End of The Angry Statement

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Stating the obvious regarding regional pay vs. major pay, the regionals pay what they do because pilots are willing to work for those wages. The regional pilot will build their time in hopes of hitting the "mother lode" at the majors. The regionals (and majors) take advantage of this. Kind of like minor league ball players hoping to make it to the bigs.
It is a shame but that is the way the system is currently.
It's a labor of love.
Pilots making too much money....it took a lot of hard work to get to that "easy" flying job. Takes a lot of hard work just to get the minimum requirements to apply!

 

[HERCDRVR]

Coming from a military aviation background I'm relatively new to the civilian side. I recently got out of the military a few months ago and intended to pursue an airline career, but the more I learn about this side of aviation the more I get disgusted with it. I find it difficult to deal with all the back-stabbing, petty arguments, and oversized egos on the aviator side, and the blatant mistreatment of pilots on the management side.

That's funny, that's the way I sometimes felt about flying in the military. At least in the airlines, you know exactly where you stand...seniority...seniority....seniority...

 

[HERCDRVR]

One more crazy thing I've noticed is how many pilots who think they are better because they fly larger aircraft. To those pilots I say "get yourself a good psychologist" because you've got some serious issues!!

I was truely amazed at the following true event. During the last few days of work while standing around and chatting with some fellow captains, knowing that I was at the top of the furlough list, all they could talk about was the fact that they may get displaced from the 777 to the 767. They were heartless. I hope they stay the minority... Good discussions...not much else to do except cruise the boards here while waiting for recall. Thanks to all..

 

[LR25]

I will keep this short.

If the difference between regional pay and major pay is becuase of revenue, I will pose this question.

Look at USAir, to me it looks like the feeders, PDT for one is holding up USAir.

Where is my pay raise?

Maybe we need a revolving pay scale, when you do bad an I do good, I get the big check, vica versa.

If I am wrong on my perspective, I will get more edgucated.

LR25

 

[kilomike]

Hey KSU!!

KSU,

What a crybaby you are. WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Your name calling shows your maturity level. WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Anthony]

Interesting article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56746-2002May8.html


Curious to hear what some of you guys/gals think.

AJ

 

[SpeedRacer]

Labor Article

I for one say "Congrats" to the United and Delta pilots on their great contracts!!!!!!!

Not to change the subject but did I miss it or has anyone called for MANAGEMENT taking some paycuts for a change!!?? I bet they could live off a measly $200K vs. $2 mil a year - unless their highly stressful, incredibly dangerous office jobs are worth more! Doubt that....


See Ya!

Speed

 

[peepsmover]

Barney Fife vs. El Nino/SpongeBob, Et al

People, people, can't we all just get along?! Ha! I promise no pious Anthony like sermon, nor flagrant wrapping oneself in the flag to hide dull thinking. Even a kid can bait..."SpongeBob Square Pants is the devil himself!" See? Oh yeah, I'm a vet too, but so what? I've flown with Captains who make that criminal pay of $250K+ who were Vietnam POWs and they'd tell Anthony the same thing, leave saving the whales out of this stay on issue:

The simplistic reality is economics. In majors that have an effective union, the pilots not only make more money, but also their companies make more money. Those salaries were not simply conceded to, nor handed over, some were earned after lengthy strikes, all in all they were business decisions. The pilots witheld their labor and the company withheld their wages until it became too costly, for both parties, certainly the company could have hired replacement pilots which in some instances has happened. Your pronouncement that the airlines are going under because pilots are making too much money, is way too silly. Your statement sounds like a comedy line right out of "Dr. Strangelove." (That is a movie not a porn film) Why not blame it on "El Nino" or the fact that Al Gore couldn't win in his home state? My ideas are much more plausible than yours, because mine at least allude to complexity and yours, well its BarneyFifesque at best.

Airlines having financial problems, oh my lord! Cats and dogs living together! Is this really a revelation? Are you braying about the obvious, or are you crying about something new? No, it is not new and so pray tell my good pilots what happens? Anyone? Anyone? Ferris? CHORUS: Well that is when pilots forgo pay increases, incur pay decreases, or worst suffer forloughs.

It is economics, and so whether an airline is able or willing to pay what the contract calls for it is always driven by the economics of the situation. So just like the weather, pay is always subject to change. And like any contract negotiation, more often the company is in a better position and the pilots are not. I know that is a new concept for you to understand, but your ignorance perplexes me, since I too was an army geek. Clue: civilian pay unlike govt. pay is subject to a negative change (economic term: contraction).

To place things into context, I have had the honor of working with some captains that are approaching retirement, and they all have figured that adding all the time they have been forloughed for whatever economic/labor unrest reason, they averaged 10 years without a job, B scale, and no raises for over 6 years on one stretch. Factor in inflation, and "no raises" means less buying power each year. That get rich scheme all was with their current company. You take that same scenario and look at how many of our fellow pilot buds are without jobs, and then consider that some aren't even at the majors yet, the fast/quick buck to riches you rant about is suddenly a long ways off, yet mandatory retirement at age 60 keeps steadily approaching. My point is that turbulent times in the airline industry is a constant, deal with it. You are not offering anything new, other than your ignorance.

You add the costs of financing your own flight training and you quickly see that this is a labor force that paradoxically has high costs for entry, yet pays poorly where a large pool of pilots are striving to build their time, all without a warranty to the exorbiant $250-300K you literally shriek about. For example, you always hear about attorneys making $300K a year, well that only happens to an elite harvard/yale few, average wages are probably $50K; look at any profession, you will find that the same holds true. So my message to you is simply that while the $250-300K is a lot, you need to realize that pay is solely international pay, can contract, and many do not acheive it. But overall the majors do pay well, and with good reason, those wages reflect the turbulent industry, sacrifices made, professional development invested, distances flown and the larger volume of passengers carried, hence they can pay more. Does a CPA with a small company get paid the same as one with a Fortune 500 sized company? No. Unlike the Army, not everybody in the "scary" free market is paid on the basis of how many years they have been there irregardless of what they do. OK., you got me, "flight pay" but in reality it is solely a pimple on the ass of this equation.

Certainly I sympathize with my bretheren in the regionals, and my opinion is as strong or weak about their future as anybody else, but I suspect that eventually market forces will in turn increase their salaries, which might even cause narrow body rates to fall, who knows? Still, our collective strength as a union is to insure that we raise all boats as much as possible, it is in our mutual interest.

Finally, pilot pay is a nice flame bait issue, "Us vs. Dem Greedy Bastards," but if you analyze it carefully you will see why pilots for the majors do get the big bucks and why when times are tough they will sacrifice: it is an economic reality. The syllogisms
Anthony offers are weak, and sophmoric at best. They illuminate a reality he cannot change: people are luckier than others in that there are only a finite amount of jobs with the Majors, nobody is better than anyone, they are simply more fortunate, is that so wrong? Karl Marx said "It is very wrong." Groucho Marx said "That's what my girlfriend's sister said and now she's my wife! I should have listened to her."

Oh yeah, I planted trees, fought forest fires, I do recycle, I don't eat my dandruff, I do wear an American flag pendant on my tie, I vote, I dont own an SUV, I sometimes watch PBS, I do volunteer work, I dont ask for plastic at the grocery store, I do use deodorantzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[HvyjetFO]

WTG Peeps

Peeps,

Nice summation. If this were a time of economic prosperity, the notion of pilots getting paid too much wouldn't even exist, and everyone would be tripping over everyone else trying to land one of these "overpaid easy jobs".

Hvy

 

[bobbysamd]

Wash Post article

It's not a bad article, actually. When it comes right down to it, though, pilots and management have always been at loggerheads. Management has always felt that pilots are overpaid, going back to the time of the first airmail contracts in 1918. During strikes, if management tried to maintain operations, it had plenty of pilots from which to choose to hire to scab itself out. Pilots have always felt they're underpaid and felt that management made them operate unsafely against their will.

The curious thing is that George Will chose American. American may have had very few CEOs. Its first CEO was C.E. Smith, who was a protege of E.L. Cord. Read about 'em both in Flying the Line. E.L. Cord had a deal where he made pilots resign and reapply to be paid at lower wages. Compare Cord and Smith to the old Continental. From what I've read and recall, the old Continental Airlines before the Lorenzo days was a great place. People sung the praises of Bob Six.

Now, from what I understand about Southwest, whom Mr. Will cited, Herb Kelleher has tried to create a congenial work atmosphere, and workers are therefore happier and productive. Of course, Southwest has its union(s).

I dunno if binding arbitration is the key. Tension between labor and management seems to come with the territory of working for an airline.

 

[peepsmover]

George Will

Now here is a guy, Will known for not having an original thought, his ideas are chiefly to underlie his penchant for baseball. Remember those wonderful skits on Saturday Night Live about Will's infatuation for baseball? Hmmm the next thing he will proffer is that baseball dugouts are so zen-like, we should use them as meditation centers, and make attendance mandatory for all inner city children. Will totally evades the economic reality of those bankruptcies, tacitly laying the woes at labor's feet. Arbitration is always a bad idea no matter what industry you are in. Studies have always shown that mediation is the best for both parties. I mean it so comical, Will is essentially saying baseball is what America is about, so what is good for baseball is good for America, how moronic is that? Arbitration is not a new idea, it has been around a long time, just think, why isn't arbitration used to establish all salaries and wages for all workers? Finally, read the fine print of your insurance policy, or warranty, usually it says that you concede to go to binding arbitration, why is that? Because the shysters that crafted that fine print work for the corporation, so it certainly is not in your favor as a consumer, why would it be any different as an employee. If a corporation is truly in dire straits, employees will make concessions, it has always happened. America's CEO, a person you would think is committed to the free enterprise system, is actually advocating something else, do you think he would concede to letting his own salary be determined by arbitration?