Airline Pay cuts driving away best pilots

[acpilot]

We are no longer creating pilots, but systems managers...Recent events have highlighted the fact that systems fail and when they do, systems managers are useless...Unfortunately, any airline-type-training school can quickstart a systems manager but there is no fast track to becoming a PILOT.

Yup..

 

[Lear70]

What about this clown.

Co-pilot’s Age [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]34 years
[/FONT][/FONT]Co-pilot’s Flying Experience [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]381 hours (of which 147 were on type)
Last 90 days - 154 hours
Last 28 days - 49 hours
[/FONT][/FONT]
Here is the full report.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Airbus A320, G-DHJZ 12-08.pdf

Yeah, 'cause *THAT'S* safe... Not.

Someone with that little flight time would just be along for the ride if something went wrong. Been there. Done that. Have that t-shirt.

I wouldn't let someone like that fly my dog without supervision..

YMMV

 

[JoeMerchant]

First, I agree that experience counts...and I welcome any attempt to increase the experience of cockpit crews......However...

1. If low pay is driving away the experience....How come it didn't drive away this USAirways crew....They BOTH are very experienced and have had their pay slashed in recent years....

2. What has ALPA done to use experience as a leverage?

3. Have we not collectively created a system that does not reward experience? If Sully were to leave USAirways for another carrier.....would he be able to transport that experience?

We did this to ourselves.....We don't reward experience in this business....why do we expect anyone else to?

 

[Brody1]

Blah, blah, blah.

What are you going to do about it?

Ooh, ooh, ooh! I know, I know (hand waving in the air)

The answer is: NOTHING.

I got beat down when I suggested taking advantage of this PR opportunity.

What was their alternative? Nothing. More of the same. PAC contributions. Talk to Congress.

Is Congress now going to look into our pay and working conditions because Sully told them to? Will the boys from ALPA National, APA, et al now have traction at the D.C. cocktail parties they attend? Will they have Senators flocking around them and hanging on their every word. Is Prater's number going to be on Oberstar's call log? (Will it even be on a sticky in Ob's assistant's office?)

Is management shaking in their Guccis?

Unless we get innovative and change our tactics, nothing will come of this golden opportunity. The stage is set, the microphone is on, the cameras are rolling, the seats in the theatre are full and nothing will happen because we didn't bother to show up because we were unwilling to try something different.

Sorry to interrupt. Please continue your discussion.

TC

I agree that the profession needs to change tactics. Not sure that I would agree to giving the unions their marching orders to get the word out to the public regarding pay issues. Historically, when has this EVER worked? I've always thought that the public perceived pilots as underworked and overpaid. The feedback on some of the public forums regarding Sully's remarks was pretty one-sided, at least the ones that I saw. It sucks- but unfortunately it's reality. I don't think that pilots will ever get much sympathy from the flying public regarding pay and QOL issues- but safety is another matter. If pilots (and unions) can convince people that commercial aviation is becoming more and more unsafe (which it is), and do this without ever bringing compensation into the equation, people might actually take us seriously. Informational picketing outside of multiple busy airports with SEVERAL DIFFERENT AIRLINES' pilots taking part in it together- from both regionals and majors. We can say that we're not asking for more money, we just want to make the public aware of some of the issues that concern us, and the trends that we find alarming. We can discuss things like heavy mx being sent overseas, fatigue, lack of proper crew rest, recent changes in some of the ASAP programs, etc. You get the idea. It would get plenty of exposure. Call me a hopeless optimist, but given the state of our profession at the moment, what do we have to lose? IF it actually creates any momentum, it might lead to the dreaded 'committe' approach where someone in Washington decides that this issue warrents further review due to all the media attention it's receiving. Maybe, just maybe, the committee will find that with the media exploiting it, and the flying public getting a little spooked by it all, that maybe it's in everyone's best interests to address a few of these concerns.

Is it a bit radical? Yep. Far-fetched? Maybe. After losing 40% of our income, and most of our pensions, what the hell? Besides, when was the last time you saw pilots from different airlines standing side by side, in uniform, in front of an airport educating the passengers on something other than wages?

 

[eaglesview]

1. If low pay is driving away the experience....How come it didn't drive away this USAirways crew....They BOTH are very experienced and have had their pay slashed in recent years....

2. What has ALPA done to use experience as a leverage?


We did this to ourselves.....We don't reward experience in this business....why do we expect anyone else to?

Sully was talking about driving away future pilots. as for your point number 2 you are correct, ALPA cannot use experience as a leverage because they have prostituted themselves and now represent anyone with a pulse and a pilots certificate as long as they arein good standing."

 

[climbhappy]

If you use this logic, then one could say this industry drove many experienced travel agents away. Show me an industry where serving cokes can net you 60k and 15 days off a month, and I'll show you one losing their a$$. yes, those days are gone.
Internet ticket sales and the airlines propensity to have "fare sale" after "fare sale" created an expectation of cheap tickets. It is beyond late to see a fix for this.

Only a change in FAA regs to even sit in a 121 cockpit could impact this. Without 1500, an ATP and a national pilot union similar to a bar association for lawyers, would you ever see pilots get any leverage.

Does anyone have any numbers on how many 500 hour wonders occupy regional cockpits? I'm talking about initial time at hiring. Find that number and you'll find the problem.

 

[727C47]

in the 60's during the last genuine pilot shortage United hired guys with just basically a private ticket,most of them retired as 747,DC-10 Captains,just saying.

 

[pilotyip]

not everyone made Capt

in the 60's during the last genuine pilot shortage United hired guys with just basically a private ticket,most of them retired as 747,DC-10 Captains,just saying.

many also failed and ended that project

 

[lionflyer]

Only a change in FAA regs to even sit in a 121 cockpit could impact this. Without 1500, an ATP and a national pilot union similar to a bar association for lawyers, would you ever see pilots get any leverage.

...or a revision to the RLA giving us pilots a little leverage. I don't expect the FAA to change a darn thing. If it costs the airlines any money, Fuggetaboutit!

 

[climbhappy]

it doesn't help when airlines choose to control their fuel costs with hedges at the top of the spike... just one stupid decision after another.

 

[NuGuy]

in the 60's during the last genuine pilot shortage United hired guys with just basically a private ticket,most of them retired as 747,DC-10 Captains,just saying.

And many of these guys sat sideways in a 727 for 3-4 years, watching what went on, before they even got close to a window seat.

Far different than plopping into an RJ at 500 hours.

Nu

 

[800Dog]

it doesn't help when airlines choose to control their fuel costs with hedges at the top of the spike... just one stupid decision after another.

Actually, when many airlines hedged around $130, the traders believed oil was going to go to $200 a barrel. Management does make many stupid decisions but, I cannot blame them for hedging at those high levels. $200 oil would have killed some of the companies.

 

[pilotyip]

Great hindsite

it doesn't help when airlines choose to control their fuel costs with hedges at the top of the spike... just one stupid decision after another.

They should have known they could have called you and gotten the word on what prices would be in December 2009. Would you be singing their praises if oil had gone to $200?

 

[gunfyter]

Only a change in FAA regs to even sit in a 121 cockpit could impact this. Without 1500, an ATP and a national pilot union similar to a bar association for lawyers, would you ever see pilots get any leverage.

Lawyers?

Hell ... Doctors and the AMA ... thats one good union right there.

There is no shortage of people who want to be Doctors but Medical Schools limit the number of people they will accept.

Flight Schools and ATP mills have no such limits.

 

[727C47]

And many of these guys sat sideways in a 727 for 3-4 years, watching what went on, before they even got close to a window seat.

Far different than plopping into an RJ at 500 hours.

Nu

speaking as a former FE ,watching isn't remotely the same as doing,they are better served earning their stripes in an RJ,or much better yet,a Twin Beech.