quotes from Mel:
"No one in their right mind would say that they can fairly represent majors and regionals, and I know you agree with that statement."
That is the problem Mel, people ARE saying that (not you), and are suing because of it. People DO think it is possible.
"Every time we present an argument, you say things like, "I'm tired of seeing this typical lazy American sense of "entitlement" coupled with "its everybody else's fault but mine". I'm sorry you don't like the concepts of how unions work, but that is reality."
I have said that once, and "its everybody else's fault but mine" is a concept the union works from?? See below for further regarding my posts.
"The reason I told you to back to the Majors board is that you have no solutions. You just keep saying it is not ALPA's fault."
And nobody else here has a solution either. All I keep seeing is "stop the whipsawing" in conjunction with blaming Alpa and mainline. What is the solution to prevent whipsaw between regionals?? I don't see that there is one. You keep bringing up the brand scope point but we both agree that there is no solution between mainline and regional, so that is a non-issue. Can't fairly represent separate groups going for the same flying.
"But ALPA NATIONAL can make the mandate not to do it. ALPA NATIONAL can dictate what the limits will be. If local LEC's choose not to agree, they can be booted out."
Alpa national can mandate the lec's until it is blue in the face, but that is not going to help this situation now is it?? Alpa has no control over United management's decision to put out a bid for feeder service any more than they can keep "xyz" regional airline's management from bidding on it. They also have no control over places like skywest. What is to keep them from doing the Air Wisc. flying for cheaper?
Now, what Alpa CAN do is mandate the Lec's to not accept any salary below $xxxxx to keep the whipsaw out, and prevent management's from "fishing" for cheaper labor, and I take it that is one of your proposed solutions (not being smart either, I am asking)?? If it is, there are several reasons why I feel that is a non-viable solution. First, Alpa can scream all they want about the salary for regionals, but there is that little problem called management. If they don't want to pay that, what is the solution then? They will ultimately get out of the contract (think chp 11) and go and hire a non-union carrier. As I have said before, there are plenty out there that would do it. Second, in order to level the playing field between regionals, pay has to match. How is that going to happen? If the lower-paid are brought up to match the others, see point number one for the problem with that. If the higher-paid are brought down to some level, do I really need to point out the problem with that one? I guarantee 95% of the guys out there would not take a pay cut to match everybodies salary. Goes back to my "human nature" arguement.
Is one of your solutions to boot out any lec that doesn't vote on a certain pay level? (questioning again). If it is, talk about lawsuits...
"I ask you "Why can't ALPA national enforce the mandates that THEY ARE PROPOSING AND SUPPORTING?""
Again, what are these madates that have been proposed that would stop the whipsaw between regionals? If none have been proposed what would work? If you are talking about mainline/regional mandates, again, it can't be win-win situation.
"I ask you, John: I pay dues to ALPA, as does my pilot group. So why don't I have a right to question why MY union does not support ME or MY PILOT GROUP who are paying THEIR SALARIES?"
I am NOT saying you can't complain about what you deem to be a problem. What I have been commenting on is the REASONS behind people's complaints, how they are flawed (IMHO), how there is not the "golden" solution everybody thinks there is, and how all there is are complaints stated, not solutions.
"Why is that, John? Maybe because you are at the top of the heap and you aren't feeling the affects of lack of representation? It's a lot easier to tell people to quit complaining and suck it up when you aren't living just above the food stamp level. "
Gimmie a break. I haven't been at the "top of the heap" for 3 years. I've been furloughed roughly 6 times longer than I was ever at a mainline, and I have now been doing corporate/charter just as long as 121. And I have done the "living just above the food stamp level." And as for those that are, they made the CHOICE to do so (as I did). They knew what the pay was going into it. If they thought it would magically change, that is their ignorance. Not saying they have to like it, but they made the choice. That is one of my arguements when I see people complaining about pay: accept responsibility for your choices.
I think I have answered your questions, so how about mine?
What is the solution for Alpa to stop the whipsaw between regionals so that it is no longer attractive for management's to "fish" for cheaper labor, like United with Air Wisc. (that is what we are talking about here, the chance they may lose their feed to a lower cost carrier).
That has to be all for me for now as I have typed this response three times now, it kept disappearing.
"No one in their right mind would say that they can fairly represent majors and regionals, and I know you agree with that statement."
That is the problem Mel, people ARE saying that (not you), and are suing because of it. People DO think it is possible.
"Every time we present an argument, you say things like, "I'm tired of seeing this typical lazy American sense of "entitlement" coupled with "its everybody else's fault but mine". I'm sorry you don't like the concepts of how unions work, but that is reality."
I have said that once, and "its everybody else's fault but mine" is a concept the union works from?? See below for further regarding my posts.
"The reason I told you to back to the Majors board is that you have no solutions. You just keep saying it is not ALPA's fault."
And nobody else here has a solution either. All I keep seeing is "stop the whipsawing" in conjunction with blaming Alpa and mainline. What is the solution to prevent whipsaw between regionals?? I don't see that there is one. You keep bringing up the brand scope point but we both agree that there is no solution between mainline and regional, so that is a non-issue. Can't fairly represent separate groups going for the same flying.
"But ALPA NATIONAL can make the mandate not to do it. ALPA NATIONAL can dictate what the limits will be. If local LEC's choose not to agree, they can be booted out."
Alpa national can mandate the lec's until it is blue in the face, but that is not going to help this situation now is it?? Alpa has no control over United management's decision to put out a bid for feeder service any more than they can keep "xyz" regional airline's management from bidding on it. They also have no control over places like skywest. What is to keep them from doing the Air Wisc. flying for cheaper?
Now, what Alpa CAN do is mandate the Lec's to not accept any salary below $xxxxx to keep the whipsaw out, and prevent management's from "fishing" for cheaper labor, and I take it that is one of your proposed solutions (not being smart either, I am asking)?? If it is, there are several reasons why I feel that is a non-viable solution. First, Alpa can scream all they want about the salary for regionals, but there is that little problem called management. If they don't want to pay that, what is the solution then? They will ultimately get out of the contract (think chp 11) and go and hire a non-union carrier. As I have said before, there are plenty out there that would do it. Second, in order to level the playing field between regionals, pay has to match. How is that going to happen? If the lower-paid are brought up to match the others, see point number one for the problem with that. If the higher-paid are brought down to some level, do I really need to point out the problem with that one? I guarantee 95% of the guys out there would not take a pay cut to match everybodies salary. Goes back to my "human nature" arguement.
Is one of your solutions to boot out any lec that doesn't vote on a certain pay level? (questioning again). If it is, talk about lawsuits...
"I ask you "Why can't ALPA national enforce the mandates that THEY ARE PROPOSING AND SUPPORTING?""
Again, what are these madates that have been proposed that would stop the whipsaw between regionals? If none have been proposed what would work? If you are talking about mainline/regional mandates, again, it can't be win-win situation.
"I ask you, John: I pay dues to ALPA, as does my pilot group. So why don't I have a right to question why MY union does not support ME or MY PILOT GROUP who are paying THEIR SALARIES?"
I am NOT saying you can't complain about what you deem to be a problem. What I have been commenting on is the REASONS behind people's complaints, how they are flawed (IMHO), how there is not the "golden" solution everybody thinks there is, and how all there is are complaints stated, not solutions.
"Why is that, John? Maybe because you are at the top of the heap and you aren't feeling the affects of lack of representation? It's a lot easier to tell people to quit complaining and suck it up when you aren't living just above the food stamp level. "
Gimmie a break. I haven't been at the "top of the heap" for 3 years. I've been furloughed roughly 6 times longer than I was ever at a mainline, and I have now been doing corporate/charter just as long as 121. And I have done the "living just above the food stamp level." And as for those that are, they made the CHOICE to do so (as I did). They knew what the pay was going into it. If they thought it would magically change, that is their ignorance. Not saying they have to like it, but they made the choice. That is one of my arguements when I see people complaining about pay: accept responsibility for your choices.
I think I have answered your questions, so how about mine?
What is the solution for Alpa to stop the whipsaw between regionals so that it is no longer attractive for management's to "fish" for cheaper labor, like United with Air Wisc. (that is what we are talking about here, the chance they may lose their feed to a lower cost carrier).
That has to be all for me for now as I have typed this response three times now, it kept disappearing.
