Air Tran vs. Jet Blue

[CMRaviator]

Given the opportunity to go to Air Tran or Jet Blue, which of the two carriers provide the best growth opportunity, stability, ect? Any insight from those with more knowledge on the two carriers would be appreciated.

 

[G4G5]

Both are good choices. Lenoard and Neeleman are both smart cookies. They will both be in charge for sometime.

Where do you live. NY or ATL? Pay rates, stock options, bennies upgrades are all nice but I am not the type to commute

 

[jetblue320]

Well, of course I am biased towards JB but either is a good choice. Like G4G5 mentioned, if you commute that will come into play. I don't know for certain but I am pretty sure that the pay (salary wise that is) is a bit better at JB but I won't swear to it. That's easy enough to find out. The growth potential at both is great. Right now, the time to upgrade at JB is 20-24 months but if you started your app. now, it might be more on the A320 but you could probably upgrade sooner on the E190 if that is your choice of planes. Chances are good that you will be based in JFK on the A320 but there are a few folks getting FLL or LGB (our only 2 other crew bases to date) but the advancement from reserve to line holder at JFK will probably be quicker, because it is a bigger base. As far as quality of life, I can only attest to the JB side but I will tell you this; you won't find a nicer group of caring, thoughtful, fun folks to work with. I see a lot of bitterness amongst the different groups of pilots from all the other airlines and you will hear all the drivel and tripe about how we are lowering the bar, and leading the race to the bottom, and we are responsible for all their woes but the fact of the matter is that we are a proud, and very capable pilot group and we love our jobs and all of us look forward to going to work each and everyday that we do. And, we have a bright future no matter what the others say. People tend to argue with what they don't understand and that is the case here for sure.

Hey, don't take my word for it. Wait for the testimony from Skirt, DLRedline, and a host of others from this forum that spent 15-20 years with the majors and then came to JB "on the own accord" and not because they didn't have a choice. That should be enough to convince anyone, (well, maybe with the exception of my buddy the General )


Anyway, I have had minimal exposure (a few jumpseats and my family flies with them a lot to ATL) to Airtran, but they seem to be a happy lot and from what I have read, they have a great future as well. They must be doing something right to have DL scrambling the way they are. I am sure some of the Airtran folks here will provide you some insight.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

C Ya

 

[General Lee]

Jetblue320,

I am glad you are happy and feel secure with Jetblue. I wish we all could feel that way. I hope better times are around the corner for all of us---but it seems like some battles are around that same corner. I can't believe you guys like living in NY (other than the people in LGB or FLL)? What is there to do in Yonkers on a cold Friday night??? Take it easy......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flying Freddie]

I was at AirTran and I am now at jetBlue. Both pilot groups are great. I am in the left seat at jetBlue. I would still be an F/O at AirTran. If it wasn't for jetBlue I would have stayed.

For the General. Kew is cool when you are Blue! Much better than feeling lousy with the DELTA blues! Just kidding dude.

 

[AlbieF15]

Freddie,

How do you think things will change at AirTran now that the 737s are on order?

I didn't realize you had been at both. Wow--you need to share your insights on what you liked/didn't like at both places for the wannabes out there. That is a very interesting bio....
Experience at 2 LCCs is rare, and even though I don't have a dog in this fight I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Flying Freddie]

My insight into this is biased. While I liked both, jetBlue was more for me. If I said anymore I might hurt feelings. I do feel the management at jetBlue is way more caring then AirTran. I did not like the way the training department at AirTran treated the new hires and upgrades. Eastern was a good airline but some of the instructors were bitter that these "kids" were checking out in less than a year. But the other Eastern guys there were great to have as instructors. As I said, both pilot groups make you feel like you are all on the same team.

 

[Ty Webb]

I wouldn't disagree with what you have written.

JB seems to have 21st Century management, while ours still subscribes to the "heavy-handed" school of Airline Management.

I like what I have seen of JB, but with 5 AirTran flights a day to get me home . . . it's just too easy to keep showing up. Looking at upgrade over the summer.

 

[Falconjet]

Good Question

What I really wonder though, is why this thread gets lots of thoughtful, cogent responses, while a similar discussion between SW and FDX gets all kinds of folks saying do we really have to have this discussion again before it turns into a pi__ing contest.

I mean this is the majors board, and neither of these companies is a major yet. Thats all well and good, because it saves me from having to jump around the boards, and I like to read the replies. But why isn't it ok to have the same discussion between SW and FDX? So far this discussion is very interesting and helpful, I hope it continues that way. Thanks to those who are playing nicely.

Just one of those things that makes me go hmmmmmmmm.

FJ

 

[skirt]

If given a choice of two employers there are many things to consider beyond the obvious of pay, bennie's and commute (though these are biggies, of course).

First, you have to ask yourself what is most important to you and your family, and rank your top ten things. If you are married, you may want to do this exercise together. Make a spreadsheet and check off the pros and cons of each airline. Some of the items to look at are as follows (in no particular order):

First year pay
Top pay
Time to upgrade
Time to get off reserve
Commute
Number of bases and potential expansion
Seniority of bases
Type of scheduling (hard lines, pref. bidding)
average numbers of days off
min guarantee and max. cap
reserve guarantee
overtime pay
ability to layover at home or live in base
Retirement
Health and insurance bennies
pass bennies
route structure (current and forecast)
value structure (ie. JB, SWA, AK all follow strong corporate values)
business acumen of leadership
profitability of airline
ability to execute business plan to remain profitable
Debt. vs. Equity ratio and future debt. payments
labor-management relationship
Leadership style (command and control vs. caring and listening)
culture
level of happiness of current pilots
level of teamwork amongst workgroups
time to next contract amendable date
will next contract be more or less than current
quality of training
quality of safety infrastructure
type of planes on property
number of planes on order
growth plans
stock ownership/options
stock purchase plans
potential for change of ownership
job security
union vs. non-union
other things you may think of


These are the things that I weighed when making a decision to leave the left seat at a major, to start over at JetBlue. On the surface for me it was an immediate pay hit, transcon commute, loss of retirement, loss of captain seat, etc. However, to me the other "intangables" far outweighed the more tangible items (especially in the area of culture, labor-management relationship, leadership and job enjoyment). I'm a much happier person at home, and my hubby loves that part!

Everyone is different, and no two pilots would rank the above list the same. To be honest, very few would rank them they way I did. Do your own analysis and make up your own mind. The idea is to make as informed a choice as possible. This board is a great place to find answers. For some, there are things on the list that are non-negotiable, and for others it is give and take. Fortunately you have a choice. About the only other advice I could give, is once you decide, DON'T LOOK BACK.

Good luck.

Skirt

 

[Ty Webb]

Could you re-post everything after " I did it with my husband, and then he totally agreed with the outcome, which made the decision that much easier and happier"?

My train of thought derailed at that point.

Sorry!

 

[skirt]

Ty,

Freudian slip...

...changes made

Thanks

Skirt

 

[Falconjet]

Ty

Ty Webb.

Rogue? Definitely.

Enlightened? Not even close.

We've come a long way baby.

Maybe not.

FJ

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: Ty

Originally posted by Falconjet

Rogue? Definitely.

Enlightened? Not even close.



"Is it perfume from a dress . . . . that makes me so digress?"




Milquetoast

. . . . Not!

 

[dugav8s]

Skirts response to this thread was awesome. I know many of the items listed are easily found or are already common knowledge. I would love to hear from the experienced folks, thoughts on union vs non-union, retirement plan etc.

I am a rookie, thanks for putting up with my ignorance and for any incite that it posted.

Fresh

 

[MDP727]

Jetb is a great company with a good buisness plan. However, I elected a few years ago to never work at another carrier without a contract and so things will eventually change at JB. It only takes getting burned by an airline once or twice to develope this mind set. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the company just shelve a raise promised to you guys at JB?

 

[JayDub]

Jetb is a great company with a good buisness plan. However, I elected a few years ago to never work at another carrier without a contract and so things will eventually change at JB. It only takes getting burned by an airline once or twice to develope this mind set. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the company just shelve a raise promised to you guys at JB?

Ok, you are corrected.

1. There are too contracts. Each individual signs a five year contract with the company (and no, everyone does not negotiate their own deal like Simmons Airlines and the YS-11). Instead of our contract being passed by some-odd percentage, it was passed by 100% of the populace. You know exactly what you are getting into.

2. My contract has me making about @ 30 dollars an hour less an hour than I am making right now, so I am already making more than I originally planned. There are and have always been tons of rumors of the next pay raise, but I have personally never heard anything official.

It is my personal opinion we won't see a raise as long as there are white with green sperm 75s undercutting our prices by 20 or 30 bucks. But you know how it goes on opinions...


Respectfully,


JayDub

 

[320AV8R]

These are the things that I weighed when making a decision to leave the left seat at a major, to start over at JetBlue. On the surface for me it was an immediate pay hit, transcon commute, loss of retirement, loss of captain seat, etc. However, to me the other "intangables" far outweighed the more tangible items (especially in the area of culture, labor-management relationship, leadership and job enjoyment). I'm a much happier person at home, and my hubby loves that part!

Skirt,

Do you mind me asking what major did you leave for JB, & what made it so bad that you had to leave?

Also, what does the JB "contract" cover? Do you have:

--duty & trip rigs

--schedule guarantee

--minimum # of days off....can they call you on your off day & assign you a trip....etc

Just Wondering............

 

[Dizel8]

--duty & trip rigs: Yes

--schedule guarantee: Yes

--minimum # of days off: Yes

can they call you on your off day & assign you a trip: Yes, they can junior man, but you get paid at time and a half

 

[dugav8s]

Just an attempt to keep this near the top and get more info.

Both of these carriers will be majors this year, so I do believe this thread is relevant.

I have heard that JB was set up nicely to be purchased in the future. When it comes to corporate finance I sit right next to Forest Gump, so I would like to hear about this from anyone who is knowledgable. I would fear any type of change of command at JB, David and Dave seem to have their stuff wired and any change would have to be for the worse.

Also, would love to hear thoughts on union vs non-union as well as thoughts on whose long term benefits are better.

Lastly, does anyone think that Air Tran's ability to survive their past and do it in ATL make them more viable in the long run? They seem to be doing as well as JB.

Thanks to all.

Fresh

 

[jetblue320]

I have heard that JB was set up nicely to be purchased in the future. When it comes to corporate finance I sit right next to Forest Gump, so I would like to hear about this from anyone who is knowledgable. I would fear any type of change of command at JB, David and Dave seem to have their stuff wired and any change would have to be for the worse.

Also, would love to hear thoughts on union vs non-union as well as thoughts on whose long term benefits are better.

Thanks to all.

Fresh

Firstly, JB is not likely to be sold anytime in the future, near or otherwise. It was not, repeat not, set up that way even though it may appear to be that way. I know both David and Dave on a personal level and speaking for David's own beliefs, jetBlue is not now, nor ever will be for sale. This ship is David's dream come true and believe me, he is not in it for the money. The man has probably over $100 million + and it's not a "financial venture" for him. I have heard him say these exact words.... "I have enough money for me and my family and their families for years to come, it's not about the money". Besides, David is only about a 5% +/- investor in jetBlue and only has one vote on the Board of Directors. Here's a factoid that is public info but a lot of people may not know; David contributes his entire salary ($200k a year) to a jetBlue employee crisis fund. Get the picture? As far as Dave B. goes, he is our General and you won't find a more committed individual around. He will be here for a long time to come. He turned down a very high level, high paying job at DL to come here from the start and will be here to put the padlock on the gate if it ever happens, which I doubt.

Secondly, as far as a union at jetBlue; possible? yes. Probable? no, not any time soon if ever. If there ever is any "organization" in my opinion it would be in-house representation. You would be hard pressed to find 10 pilots on the property to date that would even consider ALPA/Teamsters or any others. Could this change someday, sure, I guess, but it is highly unlikely. We have a large contingent of pilots here now because they were furloughed or otherwise "let down" by their ALPA buddies and believe me it has become a bad word on the streets at jetBlue.

Anyway, I hope this helped you.

 

[UAL'01]

I could not agree more with most of the posts. Both are good companies and everything else being equal, why don't you go with the one that invites you to ground school first? Unless you have two job offers, I would think it would be prudent to take the first job to come up.
Good luck to you.

 

[jaxgus]

Rumors

Jetb is a great company with a good buisness plan. However, I elected a few years ago to never work at another carrier without a contract and so things will eventually change at JB. It only takes getting burned by an airline once or twice to develope this mind set. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the company just shelve a raise promised to you guys at JB?

My jetBlue contract spells out yearly raises based on seniority like any other carrier. As for jetBlue " . . . shelving a promised raise . . ." this is not correct! We were never promised a raise which was subsequently cancelled.
There was a lot of speculation we might receive one, by us pilots, so I asked Al Spain (VP of Operations) as to the status of a raise and he publically stated "there are no official plans to provide a raise to the pilots at this time." Bottom-line, we weren't burned by management over a raise, all I had to do was ask them a direct question and I got a direct answer with the rationale behind it (see next paragraph).
jetBlue is committed to cost-control and the market is extremely competetive at this time. I would like a raise like any other person working in America, but I am happy we aren't arbitrarily raising salaries while Song, American and TED are agressively targeting jetBlue's market share. Having a good paying job at a growing company is a lot better (IMHO) than a great paying job at one who files bankrupcy because of sky rocketing costs.

jaxgus

P.S. My lawyer (like this really adds credibility) really like jetBlue's contract and felt it was a very thorough employment contract. Yes, I had him review it before I signed.