Air Tran gives 3 year old the boot

[FmrFreightDog]

I'll just interject one thing in defense of Lear.

First of all, I've never spanked my son, mainly because I've never found it necessary. He's pretty much a perfect child. I imagine that he's saving it all up for the day he turns 16, and then we've got real problems!

However (Rez. and BVT), I also do not find in necessary to tell my peers how they should raise their children. Yes, abuse is a very serious issue and should not be tolerated.... ever. However, abuse is done out of anger and discipline is not. There is a profound difference.

I know many many people who spank their children and none of them do it out of anger. Granted, the concept of corporal punishment is a difficult one. Most people have very strong opinions on the subject, and it's doubtful that an internet debate will do much to change anyone's mind.

However, the "non-spanking" crowd in this particular debate is starting to take on a decidedly "holier-than-thou" air. The bottom line is that, until Lear's children grow up to become either Nobel Prize winners or serial killers, neither of you will really be able to prove your thinly-veiled opinions that he is a bad parent and is harming his child by choosing to spank.

To extend the debate to the "dog" issue. I have also never popped any of our dogs (and we have several). They're generally pretty well behaved. Of course, my next door neighbor's dogs are generally pretty well behaved and they were physically disciplined as puppies. Far be it for me to judge which is the better method. We just do what works for us. I imagine most other people do the same.... for their dogs and for their children.

By the way, I was physically disciplined as a child, both by my parents and by the nuns at the school I attended. I am, to this day, a devoted son and a semi-regular attendee at mass, so I fail to see how corporal punishment has, in my case, undermined any social relationship.

Or, to put the entire rant more simply, worry about your own damm kids and let Lear worry about his.

 

[Remington]

"Spare the rod, spoil the child." Spank them when they deserve it. They'll figure out you mean business when their butt stings.

 

[newnan]

A comment on the situation from another board:

"I was at the gate in Ft. Meyers waiting for the Air Tran flight to take off for Boston so I could board the next arriving flight that would be headed to Atlanta. I witnessed this family 30 minutes prior to their flight taking off and this child was disobedient and unruly to the parents. Several waiting passengers commented on the lack of control. Then I saw the family deplane and the child was absolutely out of control for another 30 to 40 minutes. She was screaming, kicking, and crawling across the floor. The mother had NO control and the father ignored the situation."

BTV, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1771754/posts you can send them a book on your style, they seem like the type that has tried this and it didn't work out well, I'm sure they just need more patience and reading material. Their full names and street address are in the article.

 

[BVT94]

Thanks for the link to the article. I think it's further proof that the child was potentially reacting to a something in the "food", if you can call it that, that she was eating. For a child that is normally very well-mannered, these reactions could definitely take a parent by surprise.

Here's an article that talks about food additives and the effect on behavior:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1185042002

But Nick Giovanelli, of the charity Hyperactive Children’s Support Group, said: "We see a growing number of children each year and over the last 25 years, we have helped hundreds of thousands of children.
" If a child has behavioural problems, the first thing we advise is that additives should be removed from their diet.
"In a third of cases, the parents are quite amazed at the effect. In another third of cases, it may be that a child has an allergy to a natural chemical found in food and in the remaining third of children medication or alternative therapies may be needed."


And here's a link to check all the lovely ingredients found in Cheetos:

http://www.fritolay.com/fl/flstore/cgi-bin/products_cheetos.htm

And an article that mentions a side effect of MSG (an ingredient in Cheetos) is tantrums and screaming fits:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4153/is_20050222/ai_n9776384


My main intention on this thread was to point out that we don't have the whole story here. To place judgment on a child, her family, and their disciplining methods based on a news article is not fair. Have some empathy--it might just happen to you on an upcoming flight in California or in Europe, where 15 countries have already banned spanking in the home and elsewhere (which, I believe includes airplane lavs).

 

[ajhbubs84]

If you have temperamental children or cannot control them you should be removed from the aircraft. Kudos to the Tranny crew. Use any argument you want but...

Flying is not your right, it is a priveledge.

I often toss the idea around with friends and fellow pilots about a 21+ airline. If someone actually attempts this they might make millions. No annoying bratty children, who's parents don't believe in discipline, and minimal pant hanging off their arse teenagers, can't stand the sight of them. If this is discrimination, then put me in jail and throw away the key.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I often toss the idea around with friends and fellow pilots about a 21+ airline. If someone actually attempts this they might make millions. No annoying bratty children, who's parents don't believe in discipline, and minimal pant hanging off their arse teenagers, can't stand the sight of them. If this is discrimination, then put me in jail and throw away the key.

How about a 21+world. We can lock children up till then....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll just interject one thing in defense of Lear.

First of all, I've never spanked my son, mainly because I've never found it necessary. He's pretty much a perfect child. I imagine that he's saving it all up for the day he turns 16, and then we've got real problems!

However (Rez. and BVT), I also do not find in necessary to tell my peers how they should raise their children. Yes, abuse is a very serious issue and should not be tolerated.... ever. However, abuse is done out of anger and discipline is not. There is a profound difference.

I know many many people who spank their children and none of them do it out of anger. Granted, the concept of corporal punishment is a difficult one. Most people have very strong opinions on the subject, and it's doubtful that an internet debate will do much to change anyone's mind.

However, the "non-spanking" crowd in this particular debate is starting to take on a decidedly "holier-than-thou" air. The bottom line is that, until Lear's children grow up to become either Nobel Prize winners or serial killers, neither of you will really be able to prove your thinly-veiled opinions that he is a bad parent and is harming his child by choosing to spank.

To extend the debate to the "dog" issue. I have also never popped any of our dogs (and we have several). They're generally pretty well behaved. Of course, my next door neighbor's dogs are generally pretty well behaved and they were physically disciplined as puppies. Far be it for me to judge which is the better method. We just do what works for us. I imagine most other people do the same.... for their dogs and for their children.

By the way, I was physically disciplined as a child, both by my parents and by the nuns at the school I attended. I am, to this day, a devoted son and a semi-regular attendee at mass, so I fail to see how corporal punishment has, in my case, undermined any social relationship.

Or, to put the entire rant more simply, worry about your own damm kids and let Lear worry about his.

Your opinion is as valuable as mine... maybe more... with that said.. can you provide references? maybe a link or a book?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Your opinion is as valuable as mine... maybe more... with that said.. can you provide references? maybe a link or a book?

Not really. I imagine if I spent some time on google or amazon I could find something to support my point of view, but I don't really want to spend the time doing so. I was speaking purely from a personal point of view. I have never spanked my child. I know people who do spank their children. I see no difference in the end result. Anecdotal? Absolutely. However, in my own little corner of the universe, anecdotal evidence goes a long way.

I'm curious, Rez, do you have kids? If so, then best of luck raising them the best way you see fit. After all, that's all that we as parents can really do, right? If not, then your points are purely academic.

Personally, I do not see spanking a child for disciplinary reasons as abuse. I realize there are those who will disagree with me. In my time as a parent, there has only been one instance where I was so angry with my son that I felt like I wanted to hit him. What did I do?? I walked away and let my wife take care of him for a while. Hitting him in that instance would have been a product of my anger rather than a measured form of discipline, so I chose to remove myself from the situation.

Again, abuse of a child is absolutely inexcusable. However, I am inclined to give parents a lot of latitude in how they raise their children. As I said before, I was whacked many times as a child, both by my parents and by my educators. I would be hard pressed to find any evidence that I am worse for wear. Again, this is purely anecdotal. But it's also personal experience, which I find far more valuable than any textbook reference.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not really. I imagine if I spent some time on google or amazon I could find something to support my point of view, but I don't really want to spend the time doing so. I was speaking purely from a personal point of view. I have never spanked my child. I know people who do spank their children. I see no difference in the end result. Anecdotal? Absolutely. However, in my own little corner of the universe, anecdotal evidence goes a long way.

I don't think you can find something to support your view. At least something creditable. Yet you won't even try to learn....or debate. Debate cannot proceed until the verification of facts......

Your perception is your reality. Your reality isn't necessarily legal or moral. maybe....it is.

I'm curious, Rez, do you have kids? If so, then best of luck raising them the best way you see fit. After all, that's all that we as parents can really do, right? If not, then your points are purely academic.

Obviously you haven't read this thread. That also indicates you might not have read the referenced links either.

That is all we can do as parents? I emphatically disagree... As parents we can put our personal opinions and egos aside and LEARN! What is more important for a parent? Spanking a child and being right or learning a better way for your child?

The refusal to LEARN is amazing! Closed minds led to regression!!

Personally, I do not see spanking a child for disciplinary reasons as abuse. I realize there are those who will disagree with me. In my time as a parent, there has only been one instance where I was so angry with my son that I felt like I wanted to hit him. What did I do?? I walked away and let my wife take care of him for a while. Hitting him in that instance would have been a product of my anger rather than a measured form of discipline, so I chose to remove myself from the situation.

Let's just disregard acadamia and education. Why did you go to school? Did you argue with your teachers and say 'in my personal emperience that never happened so it must be false....'

Again, abuse of a child is absolutely inexcusable. However, I am inclined to give parents a lot of latitude in how they raise their children. As I said before, I was whacked many times as a child, both by my parents and by my educators. I would be hard pressed to find any evidence that I am worse for wear. Again, this is purely anecdotal. But it's also personal experience, which I find far more valuable than any textbook reference.

Classic. You were abused or wacked or hit or spanked (whatever it's called) and you turned out ok..so it must ok.

A parent could probably duct tape a kids mouth shut a couple of times in his/her life, threaten to beat them if they took it off and the child would "turn out ok". Does that make it right?

Can we grow and develop as a society? Or do we disregard research and facts? Despite the facts we are arguing the right or the righteous ability to inflict pain on our children.... completely amazing! All while a better way is known.

Research shows that spanking leads to negative and abusive behavior. Recall when the entire neighborhood watched out for all the kids. If a kid was screwing up any adult neighbor could correct the kid or let the parents know.

Today... it's FCUK YOU! I'll raise my kid the way I want....

Etiquette cannot operate where there is no goodwill or moral sense or community concern to reach​

The losers? Kids who are physically and mentally hurt. And as BTV94 has clearly shown that most often it is caused by allergies, foods, lack of sleep or difficult situations that we put our children in and expect them handle it when its impossible for them.... Not cause they are "bad" or disobedient.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

nevermind.

 

[Lake Alice]

I often toss the idea around with friends and fellow pilots about a 21+ airline. If someone actually attempts this they might make millions. No annoying bratty children, who's parents don't believe in discipline, and minimal pant hanging off their arse teenagers, can't stand the sight of them. If this is discrimination, then put me in jail and throw away the key.

I will add this. Flying out of New York half ths folks getting on the plane are over 21 and the majority of them come on with ghetto style clothing. People are just trashy compared to years ago and I find age has less to do with it these days than in years gone by.