Air Tran Bid: Is it closed? Results?

[AFcitrus]

.....

 

[SWA Bubba]

Thanks for explaining your thought process and decision, AFCitrus. Different motivations and reasons for different people. I hope things work out for you exactly as you thought, and that you throroughly enjoy your time at Southwest. Happy holidays.

Bubba

 

[dicko]

I'm a mid-level to junior 717 CA and I bid 737 FO. Everyone's motivations are different but my observations and motivations are below:

First off, there are really two reasons pilots in my seniority range bid 717 CA. Either they have deep ties to ATL and didn't want to move/commute. Or they wanted the guaranteed pay raise in 2015. Ironically many pilots won't be able to hold ATL in 2014 when Tampa starts filling up. It's also ironic that if these rumors of an ATL 737 base are true (and contradict everything told to our MC by SW management), folks who didn't bid the 73 because they didn't want to move/commute will likely be doing just that on the 71. Meanwhile they could have had much better seniority in that ATL base as a 73 FO.

Now, my motivations for giving up my CA seat:

- higher pay as 73 FO (107 TFP vs 85hrs/mo) Tell us in 2 years
- more days off (avg 17 vs 15) See above
- significantly more pay if I have 15 days off at SW Significant ? Your guarantee to do absolutely no flying is around $ 150 K a year.
- better seniority/bidding power in EVERY SW base vs what I currently hold as CA, and it will improve over time tell us in 2 years
- if I stayed a CA my seniority falls from 67% to 81% in ATL (either on reserve or just off reserve with terrible QOL for as long as I am in 717) You're not going anywhere
- when Tampa opens in 2014, I will be commuting there or will have to move (I'd rather move now with more choices to live)
- better health insurance for my family much sooner Everybody gets it in 12 days.
- paid LOL insurance much sooner
- better contract
- much better scheduling and scheduling flexibility Same people will schedule both fleets after 2013 under the mighty SWAPA contract. You'll still be on the AirTran side.
- if 717s leave "much earlier" as SW says it is trying to negotiate with Boeing, I could lose my seat before or shortly after 2015 pay raise (after missing out on all of the above benefit gains) True, but AirTran ALPA said it wouldn't happen :erm:

I may be forgoing the pay raise in 2015. However, my faith and my family/QOL comes first in my life. Money has never been the most important thing to me. That's why I wasn't willing to sell my seniority. I will have to sell/rent my ATL home and move to another domicile. But I think that was inevitable if I stayed on 71 and the timing would have been worse for my family in 2-3 yrs. And as the military has taught me, home is where ever my family is - long term commuting is a no go for me. Quite frankly given all the benefits of going to the 73 I'm amazed more CA's didn't chose it. Everyone had different reasons for choosing the way they did and I know it will work out for everyone. I'm not happy with the SLI nor that we were forced to choose between two bad choices but I also think that as time goes on we will all benefit from this experience and all our careers will be better than had this merger not occurred. Fly Safe.

Nice essay. Your plan was sound based upon what you were told.

The 717 pilots will transfer to the B Scale Southwest contract before the vast majority in 2013. They will have the same health starting in 12 days and be under the same SWAPA contract (B Scale) well before you. You're not even close in 2012 and 2013 has a big "?" next to it.

Look at your seniority and then look at the transition schedule. You'll be flying an AirTran 737 while the 717 guys transfer to the SWAPA B Scale. SWA 737 went junior for a reason.

I'd offer you some lubricant, but it seems you've bought your own. Glove up.

 

[dicko]

I'm a mid-level to junior 717 CA and I bid 737 FO. Everyone's motivations are different but my observations and motivations are below:

First off, there are really two reasons pilots in my seniority range bid 717 CA. Either they have deep ties to ATL and didn't want to move/commute. Or they wanted the guaranteed pay raise in 2015. Ironically many pilots won't be able to hold ATL in 2014 when Tampa starts filling up. It's also ironic that if these rumors of an ATL 737 base are true (and contradict everything told to our MC by SW management), folks who didn't bid the 73 because they didn't want to move/commute will likely be doing just that on the 71. Meanwhile they could have had much better seniority in that ATL base as a 73 FO.

Now, my motivations for giving up my CA seat:

- higher pay as 73 FO (107 TFP vs 85hrs/mo)
- more days off (avg 17 vs 15)
- significantly more pay if I have 15 days off at SW
- better seniority/bidding power in EVERY SW base vs what I currently hold as CA, and it will improve over time
- if I stayed a CA my seniority falls from 67% to 81% in ATL (either on reserve or just off reserve with terrible QOL for as long as I am in 717)
- when Tampa opens in 2014, I will be commuting there or will have to move (I'd rather move now with more choices to live)
- better health insurance for my family much sooner
- paid LOL insurance much sooner
- better contract
- much better scheduling and scheduling flexibility
- if 717s leave "much earlier" as SW says it is trying to negotiate with Boeing, I could lose my seat before or shortly after 2015 pay raise (after missing out on all of the above benefit gains)

I may be forgoing the pay raise in 2015. However, my faith and my family/QOL comes first in my life. Money has never been the most important thing to me. That's why I wasn't willing to sell my seniority. I will have to sell/rent my ATL home and move to another domicile. But I think that was inevitable if I stayed on 71 and the timing would have been worse for my family in 2-3 yrs. And as the military has taught me, home is where ever my family is - long term commuting is a no go for me. Quite frankly given all the benefits of going to the 73 I'm amazed more CA's didn't chose it. Everyone had different reasons for choosing the way they did and I know it will work out for everyone. I'm not happy with the SLI nor that we were forced to choose between two bad choices but I also think that as time goes on we will all benefit from this experience and all our careers will be better than had this merger not occurred. Fly Safe.

In the interest of full disclosure ..... I missed the tiny detail that you were coming from the 717. Oops. Most of it applies, except your extended stay on the 737.

I am the victim of multiple red eyes. Mea Culpa.

 

[ASADFW7]

It is hard to feel for people who now complain about things that they once prayed for. For years many AAI pilots wanted to be bought by a company that would not treat them like crap and would not have to walk the picket line on. Now that reality is here, it is interesting to see people see the hardship in thier prayers coming true.

 

[Ty Webb]

It is hard to feel for people who now complain about things that they once prayed for. For years many AAI pilots wanted to be bought by a company that would not treat them like crap and would not have to walk the picket line on. Now that reality is here, it is interesting to see people see the hardship in thier prayers coming true.

No disagreement here.

I am glad, however, that it was SWA and not Skywest (or Republic!), which I was afraid might happen. Now, THAT would have really sucked, and I try to remember that, while this isn't perfect, things could have worked out a whole lot worse.

 

[Captain Fulough]

No disagreement here.

I am glad, however, that it was SWA and not Skywest (or Republic!), which I was afraid might happen. Now, THAT would have really sucked, and I try to remember that, while this isn't perfect, things could have worked out a whole lot worse.

One of your better posts Ty. :beer:

 

[scoreboardII]

The 717 pilots will transfer to the B Scale Southwest contract before the vast majority in 2013. They will have the same health starting in 12 days and be under the same SWAPA contract (B Scale) well before you. You're not even close in 2012 and 2013 has a big "?" next to it.

.

So are the AT guys who come over with higher pay (longevity bump) for their seniority position on an A plus scale?

No.

Neither is there a SWAPA B scale for those on the 717, it's the AT pay scale that fades out as the transition is made, grow up.

 

[Lear70]

For us not in the know, what do you mean about the training plans ?

The training plan does several things that surprised people. First, and foremost, they're taking more planes than pilots initially, and using most of the year to transition many people over to the 717 on the AirTran side of the partition. (only 168 pilots TOTAL will transition to SWA next year and they're taking 22 planes out of service by mid-Dec 2012).

Secondly, that will trigger a reduction in flying (and therefore, pay), on the AirTran side sooner than was expected. Most people will be close to guarantee by the end of 2012. (I'm thankful we were able to get an increase in guarantee negotiated into the agreement).

Lastly, it appears to draw out the transition longer and leave the 737's on the AirTran side longer, operating more international flying using code-share to connect SWA passengers to AirTran international flying. It's rumored that there's hiccups in the new reservations system that are pushing that delay, but it means a much slower transition for the 737 pilots (except MCO and MKE pilots since they're eliminating that 737 flying in 2012).

So, in essence, many people bid 737 because they heard those planes were going first and wanted to get to SWA and your TFP rates sooner than later. Unfortunately, it looks like that will be significantly delayed for ATL-based 737 pilots, by up to a year in some cases over what was previously anticipated and discussed.

Just a bit of a shock for those expecting a faster transition of our 737 pilots to SWA... Surprised me, too.

 

[dicko]

So are the AT guys who come over with higher pay (longevity bump) for their seniority position on an A plus scale?

No.

Neither is there a SWAPA B scale for those on the 717, it's the AT pay scale that fades out as the transition is made, grow up.

Dear Mr Vader,

It's a B Scale, and it's a SWAPA B Scale. It's in the SWAPA contract and it's a lower payrate that only affects (former AirTran) SWAPA 717 pilots. I'll grow up and you can be man enough to 'call a spade a spade'.

You should be concerned that there is a B Scale at your airline. You've been around long enough to know when the camels nose is under the tent.

 

[jball2]

I would say its not a b scale until you have two pilots flying the same aircraft at the same airline for different rates of pay. Under the current situation, the only way that will happen is if NO AirTran guys chose to upgrade to 717 CA prior to 2015 leaving a vacancy to RSW pilots. The odds of having a RSW captain on a 717 are virtually nill until 2015. After 2015, the pays rate is at parity.

 

[SWA Bubba]

The training plan does several things that surprised people. First, and foremost, they're taking more planes than pilots initially, and using most of the year to transition many people over to the 717 on the AirTran side of the partition. (only 168 pilots TOTAL will transition to SWA next year and they're taking 22 planes out of service by mid-Dec 2012).

Secondly, that will trigger a reduction in flying (and therefore, pay), on the AirTran side sooner than was expected. Most people will be close to guarantee by the end of 2012. (I'm thankful we were able to get an increase in guarantee negotiated into the agreement).

Lastly, it appears to draw out the transition longer and leave the 737's on the AirTran side longer, operating more international flying using code-share to connect SWA passengers to AirTran international flying. It's rumored that there's hiccups in the new reservations system that are pushing that delay, but it means a much slower transition for the 737 pilots (except MCO and MKE pilots since they're eliminating that 737 flying in 2012).

So, in essence, many people bid 737 because they heard those planes were going first and wanted to get to SWA and your TFP rates sooner than later. Unfortunately, it looks like that will be significantly delayed for ATL-based 737 pilots, by up to a year in some cases over what was previously anticipated and discussed.

Just a bit of a shock for those expecting a faster transition of our 737 pilots to SWA... Surprised me, too.

Actually, this is somewhat of a surprise and shock to pilots on the Southwest side as well. We too, were expecting the 737s to come over first; in fact I'm almost sure that at one point, I read that the first 717 wasn't transistioning until sometime in 2013. Now it's almost backwards. Everyone over here was anticipating that, because it's the 737 transitions that help SWA guys: Airtran 737 guys coming over with planes trigger upgrades and upward movement for SWA guys. Plus, Airtran-to-737 guys would get under our pay scale sooner. I suppose that's as close to a win-win as possible under our agreement. Not a putdown, but it seems that the transitioning of the 717s first doesn't help the paychecks of either pilot group.

In addition to the rumored problems with the new reservation system that Lear reported (slowing 737 transistion to SWA for int'l travel), I wonder if saving money in salary isn't at least partially responsible. Southwest 717s bringing in SWA revenue (while paying Airtran salaries) would seem to help the company's bottom line. Obviously some 737s are coming over in 2012, but not at the speed and ratio that we all thought. Looks like GK is trying to save a buck or two here as well.

Bubba

 

[texman]

I knew this was going to happen.

 

[wood pecker]

Any speculation on how many will bypass class? All info prior to the closing said 717 guys going over SW 73 in late 2012 - 2013. Hopefully a few (30 or more) want to stay on 717 a little longer.

 

[OK3]

You can never go wrong blaming the IT department at SWA. I am sure it has to do with International reservation system. Sorry guys, we were hoping for more 737 transitions sooner too.