Air Tran Bid: Is it closed? Results?

[Ualexpress]

There were a total of 510 B717 Captain seat available for bid for the AirTran pilots. It didn't quite go straight seniority for those 510 slots. As mentioned above there were about 180 pilots in the first 510 on our list that bid SWA 737FO. If it had gone in straight seniority the 510th pilot on our list was a 12/2001 hire, but because of those 180 pilots and others junior to the 510 who elected to Bid 737 FO the most junior 717 Captain award was seniority #784 with a hire date of July 2004.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Humvee, I saw the same thing. I'm a mid-junior 73 Capt who bid 73FO and there are at least 170 guys senior to me who did the same as me.

No shortage of captains (myself included) who thought it would be better to be a SWA FO than a FL capt.

Be interesting to see how many of those guys already live in one of the SW western US bases, if it cut my commute in half (or made it just a short drive), I'd have bid it as well, all about QOL for me (and I already know how much I can make as a SW F/O but I know that some of the F A/T (former a/t) guys do not nor do they believe) this will all work out in the end! Some just made decisions based on their personal situation! Good on them!!!

Later,
KBB

Btw, SWAPA has the info where all the A/T guys commute from, maybe one of those guys could chime in!

 

[Lear70]

Why do you put out this mis information? I can only think you can't move on and try and be a part of one team SWA. Your a snake in the grass.

Really? Snake in the grass? mkay, whatever.

As far as the "misinformation" is concerned, which part? The idea that people over there can make more as a 737 F/O than we do as 717 CA's? Your guys have been telling us that for a year.

Or are you calling misinformation the FACT that more of our CA's wanted to stay CA's when they had the option to bid to SWA 737 F/O? That part is fact, straight out of the bid results. Here's how the numbers break down, now that I've had time to stick them in a spreadsheet from the original PDF file I got.

- Most junior 717 CA is #784 on the list, a July 2004 hire.
- Most junior 737 FO is # 1,363 on the list, an April 2007 hire.
- The most senior 717 FO who couldn't hold 737 FO is # 1,364, also in that April, 2007 class.
- 370 junior F/O's couldn't hold 737 F/O and got junior-assigned to the 717 regardless of bid preference.

Number of Captains in the top 353 (who can still hold CA on 1/1/15 when the fence drops) who chose to bid SWA 737 F/O instead of 717 CA: 95 (or about 27%).

Number of Captains in the top 510 (those who could have held 717 CA) who chose to go to SWA 737 F/O instead of staying a CA: 146 (or about 28.5%).

So, as I was saying, nearly 3/4 of the pilots elected to remain 717 CA's even though they could have held 737 F/O (this doesn't include the 15 or so "professional First Officers" we have who are super-senior but never upgrade, so the actual percentages are lower than that). Some can be accounted for, as Dicko said, by base preferences, but that's a pretty wide margin, not to mention only half of those people will even hold ATL when the base draw-down happens.

You can call me whatever names you want, I'm just relaying information. If you think I'm being negative, you really have no clue what's going on over here. I'm actually one of the people on our board telling people to keep a positive attitude and things will eventually work out OK. There's a reason the vast majority of the AirTran pilots don't post here anymore.

It'll be fine, it's just going to take some time for people to get past this and move on. I know you Southwest guys don't understand it, but taking it out on each other isn't going to help...

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

It's also interesting that although mid-level SWA 737 F/O's will make more if they "work the system", and our pilots are aware of that, almost every pilot that COULD remain a 717 Captain did so, even though they could have been a mid-level or even senior F/O.

Indicates the CA seat was more important than the extra money as a F/O working the system.

The guys now have a guaranteed spot at SWA in the future. Its not at all possible to compare today's decision making process with pre Sept. '10. Please do not drag all this sh1t up again.

 

[dicko]

Some, for certain, wanted to stay in ATL and not commute, however only the top 225 in each seat will get to stay in ATL, which doesn't account for even close to everyone who bid that way.

Just pointing out that there were many in the top 353 who could have made more money bidding and going early to 737 F/O, playing the system as a senior 737 F/O, then re-bidding in Jan 2015 to 737 CA since their seniority WILL hold it on 1/1/15. They chose to go to the 717 left seat rather than make more money playing the system.

Just an observation... Not hugely surprised, either.

True dat. Many of them made the decision for personal reasons that I can't get my head around. If you look at some parts of the AirTran culture it becomes clearer.

 

[Lear70]

The guys now have a guaranteed spot at SWA in the future. Its not at all possible to compare today's decision making process with pre Sept. '10. Please do not drag all this sh1t up again.

Sorry. Rough last 72 hours for a lot of us as this bid ended. Sometimes it takes a while to adjust to your cheese being moved before you realize you may be better off as a result down the road a bit.

Will go back to lurking... Y'all fly safe. :beer:

 

[PCL_128]

If you think I'm being negative, you really have no clue what's going on over here. I'm actually one of the people on our board telling people to keep a positive attitude and things will eventually work out OK.

This is true. Lots of angry people on our internal forum, and Lear is trying to calm everyone down and get them to move forward. Attacking him makes no sense.

 

[jball2]

In all seriousness, let's get along and move forward. This is happening and there is no turning back. We have no control over what has happened so let's focus on the positive things we can make happen in the future. Two passionate pilot groups with warrior spirits going forward as one can be a powerful thing. When I say welcome to the family, I mean it! Thanks for a great ride home this week AT guys.

 

[Quiet Flight]

NOT ONE SINGLE AIRTRAN PILOT WILL KNOW THEIR SOUTHWEST BASE UNTIL THEY ARE FINISHING IOE AT SOUTHWEST.

This is incorrect. U will know your temporary/"build-up" base while in training. If a vacancy award comes out while you're in class, you'll know your base as well.

 

[Lonestar]

Most junior 717 captain is a July 2004 hire. How does that compare to right now?

 

[Lear70]

This is incorrect. U will know your temporary/"build-up" base while in training. If a vacancy award comes out while you're in class, you'll know your base as well.

Same basic idea... we won't know until we get there and are in class.

 

[redflyer65]

I imagine most people bid for QOL/base. It's all a personal preference and as stated above, it's water under the bridge. Let's roll..

 

[saabcaptain]

A lot AirTran guys/gals bid 717 CA because they knew at the very latest Jan 1, 2015 they will get SWA Captain cash. If they bid SWA 737 FO they would have gotten a slight overall bump in pay / and large QOL enhancement much sooner but would have risked not being able to get back into the left seat as quickly when Jan 1, 2015 came if we weren't upgrading at that time (I think we will be, but it was a risk.) These dynamics have nothing to do with the implications by Lear70 that he was right all those months ago when he said being a Captain was more important than the SWA money, in fact I think the way this bid shakes out is going to be very much about the money (with a little desire to control QOL mixed in.)

I am looking forward to a point in the future when all our badges say "XXXXXX... is the Spirt of Southwest."

 

[humveedriver]

This is true. Lots of angry people on our internal forum, and Lear is trying to calm everyone down and get them to move forward. Attacking him makes no sense.

I think you're embellishing a little. The SAME people who have been bitching since day one on that forum are still bitching. Lear made a very appropriate comment on one thread (which I gave him props for). Basically, what he said was, let people vent once and for all on their own schedule, and then we can finally put it to rest. If anything it's a putting the negativity to rest period.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

This is true. Lots of angry people on our internal forum, and Lear is trying to calm everyone down and get them to move forward. Attacking him makes no sense.

Angry people? Yeah, I guess I would be angry too if I won the lottery.

 

[Ty Webb]

I bid 717CA because it gave me the best guarantee to keep a short, one-leg commute for the longest amount of time.

It looked to me like most guys who bid 717 CA already live in ATL or the Tampa area. Many of the senior guys who bid 737 FO live near MCO or other SWA domiciles.

Regards,
TW

 

[vixin]

Lear70 that he was right all those months ago when he said being a Captain was more important than the SWA money, in fact I think the way this bid shakes out is going to be very much about the money (with a little desire to control QOL mixed in.)

The problem with that statement is with the 717 CA now, comes the SWA CA money. So Lear70 didn't know anything about keeping seats then. As many of us where saying. Do you honestly think they would have bid 717 CA if they would have never received SWA CA pay? It's always been about the money and QOL. You kind of contradict yourself. It has never been about once a CA always a CA and they deserve that seat. This result shows it is more about money. Some are more risk tolerant then others. Very lucky to have the option I would say.

 

[Ty Webb]

The problem with that statement is with the 717 CA now, comes the SWA CA money.

Since 717CA will stay on AirTran pay until January 1, 2015 I'm guessing it's more about the shorter-term . . . guys wanting to stay in ATL or TPA domiciles.

Of course, our Pilots with multiple ex-wives (or multiple current wives) may be looking towards that future raise.

 

[Skyboy722]

Thread creep.....

Does anyone know how to get to that great interactive SWA/AT seniority projector? I believe it was done by an A/T guy, and it was far superior to anything our union gave us...

 

[shootr]

myseniority.com

 

[redflyer65]

Since 717CA will stay on AirTran pay until January 1, 2015 I'm guessing it's more about the shorter-term . . . guys wanting to stay in ATL or TPA domiciles.

Of course, our Pilots with multiple ex-wives (or multiple current wives) may be looking towards that future raise.

This is pretty much it in a nutshell.

 

[chris69]

Slaquer5, I think you're comments with respect to Lear's attitude are somewhat harsh. We are all on the same team now, and while he was passionate during the lengthy debate, he has probably been one of the best at putting things behind him and in perspective moving forward. What I conclude from Lear’s rather good analysis is that it really isn’t about just the seat but, significantly QOL, and what one thinks they will be able to hold on Jan 2015. The movement, I believe, will be amazingly fluid and the options open to all of us at that point, significant. I would assume that those who live in one of the 8 SWA domiciles wouldn’t mind driving to work, and if already qualified on the 737, take the paid drink fest to DAL for “training.” Both SWA and the Transformers have, without exception, bad apples that will refuse to “get over it.” But boards like these - while sometimes over heated with vitriol, disrespect and otherwise filled with bitter enmity and things that we wouldn’t say in each other’s presence - do have a cathartic purpose.

Moving forward, I think most will be positive except for the always bitter PPruner’s and SWAPA forum regulars. Remember, even with a sputtering economy, WE, are poised nicely to take advantage of opportunities as they arise. The only negative I can see may be on the East Coast as the fences come down and it becomes a free for all.

New Jet order schedule:
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/12/southwest-airlines-lays-out-59.html
or
http://www.pprune.org/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Faviationblog.dallasnews.com%2Farchives%2F2011%2F12%2Fsouthwest-airlines-lays-out-59.html

Obviously, the 300’s (165) and 500’s (25) as of 30 Sep 11 will be retired one for one according to the CFO, but there should be growth. Just read on the SWAPA site a copy of the AT MEC Chair that mentions 2%.

As for rumors, we had a guy out of the training house on the JS who now says they’re peddling the following:
-DEN base announced soon (thought this was out but seems back on the table).
-LAX base for ETOPS this Fall.
-500’s gone by end of next year along with some 300’s as well.
-Big push to the South before HI.
-By 2015 this place will see huge change. If above rumors true 12 total domiciles equals huge flexibility or vacancy confusion if you have my bidding skills.

And facts:
-265 retirements by Jan 1 2015.
-140 new hires starting training in 1Q 2012.
-Profit sharing for all NOW.

 

[Toecutter]

Any talk of an ATL 737 domicile?

 

[Ty Webb]

Slaquer5, I think you're comments with respect to Lear's attitude are somewhat harsh. We are all on the same team now, and while he was passionate during the lengthy debate, he has probably been one of the best at putting things behind him and in perspective moving forward. What I conclude from Lear’s rather good analysis is that it really isn’t about just the seat but, significantly QOL, and what one thinks they will be able to hold on Jan 2015. The movement, I believe, will be amazingly fluid and the options open to all of us at that point, significant. I would assume that those who live in one of the 8 SWA domiciles wouldn’t mind driving to work, and if already qualified on the 737, take the paid drink fest to DAL for “training.” Both SWA and the Transformers have, without exception, bad apples that will refuse to “get over it.” But boards like these - while sometimes over heated with vitriol, disrespect and otherwise filled with bitter enmity and things that we wouldn’t say in each other’s presence - do have a cathartic purpose.

Moving forward, I think most will be positive except for the always bitter PPruner’s and SWAPA forum regulars. Remember, even with a sputtering economy, WE, are poised nicely to take advantage of opportunities as they arise. The only negative I can see may be on the East Coast as the fences come down and it becomes a free for all.

New Jet order schedule:
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/12/southwest-airlines-lays-out-59.html
or
http://www.pprune.org/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Faviationblog.dallasnews.com%2Farchives%2F2011%2F12%2Fsouthwest-airlines-lays-out-59.html

Obviously, the 300’s (165) and 500’s (25) as of 30 Sep 11 will be retired one for one according to the CFO, but there should be growth. Just read on the SWAPA site a copy of the AT MEC Chair that mentions 2%.

As for rumors, we had a guy out of the training house on the JS who now says they’re peddling the following:
-DEN base announced soon (thought this was out but seems back on the table).
-LAX base for ETOPS this Fall.
-500’s gone by end of next year along with some 300’s as well.
-Big push to the South before HI.
-By 2015 this place will see huge change. If above rumors true 12 total domiciles equals huge flexibility or vacancy confusion if you have my bidding skills.

And facts:
-265 retirements by Jan 1 2015.
-140 new hires starting training in 1Q 2012.
-Profit sharing for all NOW.

Nice post. There will be some near-term pain, but over the long run, hopefully, it will be beneficial for all.

 

[PCL_128]

Any talk of an ATL 737 domicile?

Our Merger Committee is saying that it probably won't be until after the transition is complete in 2015.

 

[dicko]

Our Merger Committee is saying that it probably won't be until after the transition is complete in 2015.

Well, that settles it then. :erm:

 

[Uppercrust]

This is true. Lots of angry people on our internal forum, and Lear is trying to calm everyone down and get them to move forward. Attacking him makes no sense.

Maybe just on your forum but not what I encountered. I jumseated on Airtran yesterday and both the Captain and F/O were excited in a positive way and said they got off like bandits regarding the seniority list. The Captain was downgrading and the F/O was going to the 717. Neither one said they were angry and both said several times how most pilots over there were excited about the seniority list and thought it was actually better than what they expected. I quote the Capatin "I was planning on a staple and would have been happy but with this list I am ecstatic and even fell a little guilty towards the swa guys."

 

[dicko]

Maybe just on your forum but not what I encountered. I jumseated on Airtran yesterday and both the Captain and F/O were excited in a positive way and said they got off like bandits regarding the seniority list. The Captain was downgrading and the F/O was going to the 717. Neither one said they were angry and both said several times how most pilots over there were excited about the seniority list and thought it was actually better than what they expected. I quote the Capatin "I was planning on a staple and would have been happy but with this list I am ecstatic and even fell a little guilty towards the swa guys."

A modern classic. Kudos sir. I'd suggest an update to Wiki immediately.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Our Merger Committee is saying that it probably won't be until after the transition is complete in 2015.

Not sure which group knows more (or less) and this thing is probably pretty Fluid right now BUT...
Not what I heard last week from a SW ACP, they are told announcement in Jan. 2012 for opening first quarter 2013. CP is leaving MCO in Jan. To become A/T "liason" for SW management in ATL.

Later,
KBB

 

[PCL_128]

Not sure which group knows more (or less) and this thing is probably pretty Fluid right now BUT...
Not what I heard last week from a SW ACP, they are told announcement in Jan. 2012 for opening first quarter 2013. CP is leaving MCO in Jan. To become A/T "liason" for SW management in ATL.

Later,
KBB

I hope you're right. Much like Dicko, I don't place a whole lot of value on what our MC says, so I'd bet your ACP has better info. It would be much better for our pilots if a 737 domicile opened in ATL, and I'm sure there are plenty of SWA pilots interested in a new domicile as well.