Air tragedy puts focus on big, small carrier ties

[DieselDragRacer]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-01-crash_N.htm

"Code sharing is a significant issue and something we believe is worthy of examination," Hersman said in her opening remarks.

In the Buffalo accident and other recent crashes, NTSB investigators have found that regional carriers flying for major airlines often have lower safety standards.

Colgan, for example, did not have a program to study safety data from individual flights in an attempt to spot safety problems before they cause accidents. Such data gathering takes place at all the major airlines.

Hersman said that the NTSB will also hold a forum on the issue of pilot and air-traffic controller "professionalism."

In the Buffalo crash, the pilots made a series of mistakes and had a lengthy conversation about personal matters before the accident. Such conversations are prohibited by federal rules while flying below 10,000 feet.

 

[CaptainChris77]

It's not "small carriers" that are the issue... it's the BOTTOM FEEDER small carriers (i.e. Colgan, Mesa, etc.).

Take a look at some of the best "regionals" and their safety records....

American Eagle, Air Wisconsin, Comair, Skywest, Horizon...don't seem to be many issues there (aside from the LEX incident). But those airlines also pay well, treat employees well---which in turn will attract the most qualified candidates who know what to do in ice, or a stall, or when a caution or warning message comes up.

 

[suupah]

uhm, eagle, comair, ASA, expressjet have all had fatal accidents.

 

[JumpersAway]

uhm, eagle, comair, ASA, expressjet have all had fatal accidents.

ASA's had nothing to do with poor piloting- quite the opposite actually. Both cases in ASA's past had very competent, and extremely tallented pilots behind the controls. However, it was the machine that broke- not the training.

Brazilia lost in Brunswick was the result of a prop overspeed. One of the sharpest and most tallented pilots within the ASA pilot ranks couldn't control it and it rolled over in the trees in the blink of an eye. If anyone could have saved it, it would have been Brad...........

Brazilia lost in Carrolton as a result of poor maintenance performed by Hamilton Standard on a prop blade.

How is this ASA's fault, in either case?

 

[Brasilia Pup]

JumpersAway....GOOD POST. Thanks for stating the facts and setting ASA's record correctly. :beer:

 

[COOPERVANE]

uhm, eagle, comair, ASA, expressjet have all had fatal accidents.

Does it matter to you that the 2 ASA accidents were purely Mechanical?

1 was a bad EMB-120 propeller rebuild by Hamilton standard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_HnIyDb1Ec

1 was the deficient design of the propeller control unit by Hamilton Standard

 

[Duck94]

It's not "small carriers" that are the issue... it's the BOTTOM FEEDER small carriers (i.e. Colgan, Mesa, etc.).

Take a look at some of the best "regionals" and their safety records....

American Eagle, Air Wisconsin, Comair, Skywest, Horizon...don't seem to be many issues there (aside from the LEX incident). But those airlines also pay well, treat employees well---which in turn will attract the most qualified candidates who know what to do in ice, or a stall, or when a caution or warning message comes up.

The LEX "incident"???? Killed one less person than the Buffalo "incident".... So if bottom feeder is defined as killing one more person than Comair, then yes, Colgan is a bottom feeder. Genius.

 

[suupah]

my apologies to ASA. I by no means meant to imply the pilots were substandard, which they were absolutely not.

 

[Tarzan]

Brazilia lost in Carrolton as a result of poor maintenance performed by Hamilton Standard on a prop blade.

Might I add that due the ability of the pilots in the accident saved lives in what should have been an accident in which all were killed.

 

[planejockey]

The only fatal accident remotely associated with XJT was caused by Britt airways, a predecessor to COEX flt 2574 09/11/1991. XJT after the merger has not had a fatal accident.

 

[CLARKGRSWOLD]

Then AA must have the worst pilots in the industry. You all crack me up.

 

[Nevets]

The only fatal accident remotely associated with XJT was caused by Britt airways, a predecessor to COEX flt 2574 09/11/1991. XJT after the merger has not had a fatal accident.

And that was attributed to bad maintenance.

 

[Simon Says]

Mesaba has never had an accident. (of course I am not counting the time when mx ran one of our avros into a jet bridge in MEM)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The problem is the outsourcing of the outsourced. Colgan outsourced XJT who outsourced CAL..... in a decade Colgan will be as good and as expensive as XJT, CMR and ASA are today... and Colgan will be outsourced...

When you function with a pure profit mindset... and cost is the monolithic all consuming effort.... this will continue to happen. This is not exclusive of the airline industry... this is a nationwide and economy wide problem......

As a culture and society we have to define our values outside of the dollar... unfortunately that is all we know....


where to even begin....

 

[N813CA]

There were also many things going against the Comair pilots if you just look into it. Yes it was pilot error, but Colgen was simply..... Well they both sucked ok.

 

[Erlanger]

Guys, the Colgan accident today got very little news. The PBS special won't get watched by many. Who will be up on a Tuesday night at 9pm? Besides anybody know what else will be on that same time that Americans would rather watch?

Americans these days have other things they're worrying about. There may be changes in the industry that will affect those of us in it but the spotlight will fade and it'll be business as usual and the public will fly on who ever gets them there cheapest and quickest. Whether it's a big planes, little plane, jet or prop; it won't matter.

Just don't be crashing anymore airplanes.

 

[sniper]

There were also many things going against the Comair pilots if you just look into it. Yes it was pilot error, but Colgen was simply..... Well they both sucked ok.

COMAIR Monroe Michigan, LEX
EAGLE ATR Indiana

pilot error

 

[4BlueBars]

Mesaba has never had an accident.

What do you want......a cookie?

 

[CLARKGRSWOLD]

There were also many things going against the Comair pilots if you just look into it. Yes it was pilot error, but Colgen was simply..... Well they both sucked ok.

Um no, They took off on the wrong runway, in the wrong direction. Sorry bud, but that was Pilot Error

 

[suupah]

Let's not stomp on peoples graves here. Pilot error has been and will be the number one cause of aviation accidents. Sometimes its the best of pilots.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I also want to add my tie is medium sized and of the zipper variety.

 

[JumpersAway]

I also want to add my tie is medium sized and of the zipper variety.

................................ I like turtles too.

 

[Simon Says]

What do you want......a cookie?

Mesaba has been in business since 1947 without any major incidents. I could do without a cookie, but for the 15 years I have been here I think our training department could use a pat on the back. For what you might ask? Well, for being on the cutting edge of what training is all about. We hire out of the same pool as any other airline and for the most of it get the same types of new hires as any other airline. It is our training department that makes our safety record.

I know you want to look on the NTSB website just to try and one up me. I say go ahead.

 

[BobbyBiplane]

ASA's had nothing to do with poor piloting- quite the opposite actually. Both cases in ASA's past had very competent, and extremely tallented pilots behind the controls. However, it was the machine that broke- not the training.

Brazilia lost in Brunswick was the result of a prop overspeed. One of the sharpest and most tallented pilots within the ASA pilot ranks couldn't control it and it rolled over in the trees in the blink of an eye. If anyone could have saved it, it would have been Brad...........

Brazilia lost in Carrolton as a result of poor maintenance performed by Hamilton Standard on a prop blade.

How is this ASA's fault, in either case?

All of the above is reasonably acccurate.

The Brunswick and Carrolton accidents were device failures. The ASA accident in Brazil was a system failure ... a true "one off."

The ASA folks, particularly after 2000, have demonstrated both expertise and professional excellence not seen in the pre-2000 crowd.

Do not paint today's ASA with the idiocy of Dan Waters. The current crowd are professionals. The "Dan crowd," are IDIOTS.

Bob

 

[superrav]

Go to PBS and share the info on the show on ur facebook. I have a lot of wise ass non airline friends that are always complaining. So i've told as many as i could..we'll see what happens..

 

[LXApilot]

The most insightful thing I have seen in a long time... thank you for posting. It makes me feel like there IS some hope left.

The problem is the outsourcing of the outsourced. Colgan outsourced XJT who outsourced CAL..... in a decade Colgan will be as good and as expensive as XJT, CMR and ASA are today... and Colgan will be outsourced...

When you function with a pure profit mindset... and cost is the monolithic all consuming effort.... this will continue to happen. This is not exclusive of the airline industry... this is a nationwide and economy wide problem......

As a culture and society we have to define our values outside of the dollar... unfortunately that is all we know....


where to even begin....

 

[Captain Morgan]

And that was attributed to bad maintenance.

How did you guys get the FTD #2 and the cabin trainer? Not a "fatal" but still an interesting story. No one is better than anyone else. You're a fool to think that.

 

[flap operator]

Simon - we've been around since 1944, which further proves your point! I find it funny when someone (you) states a fact without any attitude, sarcasm or flame bait that others may not like, the result is childish remarks (4BlueBars). You're 100% dead on... we have a lot to be thankful for with our training department. It was no accident (no pun intended) that the FAA called Mesaba shortly after the BUF accident and wanted to know more about how we train stalls.

 

[Nevets]

How did you guys get the FTD #2 and the cabin trainer? Not a "fatal" but still an interesting story. No one is better than anyone else. You're a fool to think that.

I was merely pointing out a fact. Never made a comment about non-fatal accidents, FTD #2, the cabin trainer, anyone being better than anyone else, or saying anyone is a fool.

You have a problem with that?