Air france pilots getting the blame

[densoo]

Really, most FOs have not been CAs??? What world do you live in?? Sorry back on topic...way to easy to blame dead pilots and not recognize a possible design flaw. RIP

You're right. Crazy statement. Should have said that most FOs at a major have never been through CA upgrade training on the equipment they're flying.

 

[densoo]

I would have to disagree. You only need one Captain, the person that makes the final decisions regarding the flight. deck!

If in the Air France accident the one and only captain was in the back, the media is going to report "only/just copilots were at the controls." The court of public opinion will take care of the rest of it.

 

[Green]

question for moderator.

Why is Air France considered suitable for the majors forum yet Emirates is not? AF does not employ american pilots yet EK has several hundred.

 

[densoo]

Really, most FOs have not been CAs??? What world do you live in?? Sorry back on topic...way to easy to blame dead pilots and not recognize a possible design flaw. RIP

My goal isn't to blame the pilots. My goal is to get CAs back as IROs. It's one of the few things that might provide some upward movement for junior folks during the current seniority stagnation.

 

[Green]

I would have to disagree. You only need one Captain, the person that makes the final decisions regarding the flight. All three pilots are fully qualified to fly the airplane. At my airline all FO's are typed. Each leg the FO's swap from IRO to FO. If decisions besides basic flying, change altitude, etc. need to be made, you get the Captain to the flight deck so he can, well PIC! What happens when on a two-man aircraft the captain gets out to take a leak? here you have two fully qualified pilots on the flight deck and the captain seconds away if needed. In the case of the B747-400, he is in the bunk room on the flight deck!

would you really wake a captain up from his rest to ask if you could for example climb from FL340 to FL360?

 

[Lear70]

We have no way of knowing the qualifications of the F/O and the IRO who were on deck at the time of the accident. If it comes out they were some new-hire 500 hour wunderkids (if memory serves, AirFrance still does ab-initio from zero to airline pilot like the rest of Europe), then sure, slam away on the fact that there wasn't a qualified CA on the flight deck.

However, if they were like most U.S. airlines where often-times the F/O is more qualified in terms of flight hours, type ratings, overall experience than the CA (it happens all the time), then it really becomes less of a factor. At some point early in your flying experience you learn to go around the big red and purple blobs on that little screen in front of you. There are few reasons obviously apparent why they didn't do so.

As for the ACARS burst messages, from memory of that thread last year, I think the vast majority of them happened in a VERY short time period, all on top of each other and I remember thinking it sounded like a double flameout followed by the aircraft coming apart shortly thereafter before the antenna lost power and/or data feed.

You have to hope, just for the sake of the families, that SOMETHING comes up that makes it a situation where the flight crew wouldn't have been able to see what was coming. If not,,,

 

[Lear70]

Double post. Crappy hotel internet in ATL...

 

[OrionFE]

would you really wake a captain up from his rest to ask if you could for example climb from FL340 to FL360?

No, not at all! I would classify that as basic flying decisions, such as my example. Common sense has to prevail here! My point, 1 CA and 2 FO's is more than qualified to fly one them there big airplanes......

Sometimes too many Kings in the Castle has bad deal written all over it!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

...and your point is?

He was making an old 70's Steve Martin reference from the Wild and Crazy Guy album.

Ouef means egg....chapeau means hat...etc.

Old Steve Martin fans got it.

 

[whymeworry?]

I have suggested since the beginning that it was a inexperienced crew up front while the more senior were resting that lead to the demise of AF447. At many major airlines around the world, only experienced pilots are hired yet at a lot of European, Indian, and Asian carriers, the ab-initio pilot is brought through the ranks because of a corrupt selection process or good grade sheets. Both of which don't necessarily guarantee competent aviators. Even if the FO/ IRO up front had high time, a majority of it since their ab-initio training was probably in cruise flight. Their experience is the database they would be using for judgement, if they gained that via an ab-initio program and then a rather benign career in cruise flight, then they lacked the background to safely navigate around such weather. IMO, they mis-judged the storms and ended up sending the aircraft into a path of danger. Without a stout background of aviating, they would lack the knowledge needed to consider the severity of the storms they were threading through.

By the time the Captain realized there was a problem it would've been too late.

Which is why the MPL is a disaster waiting to happen. In India there are 220 hr pilots in the right seat of a B737. With a competent skipper that may work but pair them up with a weak commander, through in fatigue, bad weather, and an abnormality and they're quickly over their head. Airliners shouldn't be piloted by low-time pilots. There is just too much liability and responsibility and no amount of automation produced by Honeywell, Boeing and Airbus can dumb down the challenge when the proverbial stuff hits the fan.

Of course, this is just the way I see it. But I have flown with very experienced high-time pilots in airliners as well as low-time ab-initio types. The difference between the two is glaringly obvious. It's not a slight to low-time pilots, we were all there once. But the system should/ must change and it is the reason why hiring minimums are being legally raised in the US. The Colgan crash had many of the same experience issue, or lack thereof.