Age 67?

[waveflyer]

I thought you were trying to flame me.

His flying skill is below average, he falls asleep quite often, sometimes below 18, his work inside the plane is the worst. Wont clean or throw bags.

I would guess he has a friend pencil whip his medical, as he doesnt appear too healthy.

He is a nice guy, and easy to have a beer with, but just doesnt realize it is time too quit.

No worries- hard to gauge tone online-

And this is why I say no one >60 should be PIC- humans are just not good at evaluating their own aging. We're better at health- bc being sick or hurt is temporary- acknowledging a permanent, inevitable decline-
I won't be good at that

 

[pilotyip]

I believe a pilot over 60 should be an FO. If he has to be monitored then he shouldn't be pic.

That is because all pilots at 59, 11 months and 29 days are 100% capable and all pilot two days later are incompetent.

 

[rudder]

I have done line training and line checks on pilots on the Boeing that are between age 60-65. There is no difference between them and the ones under age 60. If a pilot is marginal then chronology is rarely a factor.

 

[pilotyip]

I have done line training and line checks on pilots on the Boeing that are between age 60-65. There is no difference between them and the ones under age 60. If a pilot is marginal then chronology is rarely a factor.

Hey stop that this is FI, we do not deal in reality here, only in the fantasy of a world that does not exist.

 

[cldsfr79]

Sure as long as the over 60 can pass a REAL 1st class med. I've flown with several over 60 pilots, and I can tell you they are just along for the ride. They don't care if they bust an FAR, and show up for check rides un-prepared. They claim that they can punch-out anytime since their game has been on overtime.

I agree with the issue of passing a real medical exam.

I have made a lot of heavy handed remarks about age. And honestly, some guys are just fine above 65 and some have real issues. The problem is that the ones with the issues (e.g. lost night vision, hearing issues, memory lose, reaction skill lose, falling asleep repeating at all hours during flight) are not aware of their issues are try to hide them. I've flown with guys who have admitted they have disqualifying health issues and are waiting for a good time to punch out on disability. Way to go to fly safely and milk the company.

Just as when you get older you have to get checked for a 1st class medical more frequently, just as you get older you have to get an EKG, I think if you want to work beyond the part 121 retirement age than you have to take further medical test from regular doctors.

I would feel just fine flying with someone 65+ if they were cleared by both a primary care physician and an AME.

 

[CE750Driver]

I have done line training and line checks on pilots on the Boeing that are between age 60-65. There is no difference between them and the ones under age 60. If a pilot is marginal then chronology is rarely a factor.

Chronology is rarely a factor!

Really?

How many 80 year olds have passed one of your line checks? If they roll up to the sim in a wheelchair, with a valid First Class, and do okay, should they be flying your family around?

Can you really sit here and say on a public forum, that pilots above age 70 have the same reactions as a middle age pilot? Or have enough reactions to be a safe pilot?

Awaiting your answers.:erm:

 

[waveflyer]

I have done line training and line checks on pilots on the Boeing that are between age 60-65. There is no difference between them and the ones under age 60. If a pilot is marginal then chronology is rarely a factor.

And for credibility sake, how old are you and we're you a captain at your airline in December, 2007.

This is an incredible statement that you've seen no pilot suffering from age related issue

 

[rudder]

December 2007? In my forties.

I have no personal experience with pilots over age 65. My airline, like all other Canadian airlines, is going to have to deal with the impact of legislation that has banned fixed retirement age in the Federal workplace. However, we will have to comply with the ICAO standards for crewing international flights.

At my airline the medical screening process appears to be working. The incidence of pilot disability does clearly increase with age. But those that can meet the standard get to come to work if they pass the technical standard every 6 months. When should it end? The Federal Government has said that assigning a number is now illegal.

 

[pilotyip]

December 2007? In my forties.

I have no personal experience with pilots over age 65. My airline, like all other Canadian airlines, is going to have to deal with the impact of legislation that has banned fixed retirement age in the Federal workplace. However, we will have to comply with the ICAO standards for crewing international flights.

At my airline the medical screening process appears to be working. The incidence of pilot disability does clearly increase with age. But those that can meet the standard get to come to work if they pass the technical standard every 6 months. When should it end? The Federal Government has said that assigning a number is now illegal.

Thank you, again this supports the fact that the aging process is not uniform. We have many pilots flying today at age 55 who less less capable than those at age 65. Yes by the time a pilot turns 80 he is most likely less capable than a 45 year old pilot.

As per an old post, if this is all about the highest possible level of safety, we take the age of pilot that experiences an in-flight incapacitation, say a heart attack at age 47, and that becomes the new retirement age.

But to set a mandatory retirement age is pure "Get out of my seat"

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why does everyone think the old fart's AME is corrupt, but their's is spot-on accurate?

You could require all of the tested parameters to be administered by machine with the results sent unfiltered to FAA Aeromedical (as EKGs are), but then you'd probably down some young guys too, and we can't have that.

Do you want a blip in the machine to instantly put you on disability while you jump through the hoops to get your medical back, or do you want to give AME's both the latitude to deal with such glitches and the benefit of the doubt that they are honest enough to withhold giving a medical to someone who is unfit to fly?

But I'm still preaching to the group of guys who the world is out to screw 'em and the government can be trusted to keep their best interests at heart.

But for the record, I advocate the companies themselves determining the criteria for hiring and retirement.

 

[madjack]

"Now that I have upgraded, age 65 is discrimination"

How many FOs support raising the age to 67 (or no limit), not many...this is all about the CPs keeping the seat as long as possible (at the expense of the FOs)...

 

[waveflyer]

Good even keeled response-
So youre Canadian- how does it work? When did retirement age go away? Do you have domestic only lines? Or is your airline allowed to retire pilots at 65 due to ICAO -

And you didn't answer - but the question needs a new frame- were you a captain, top of the food chain when Canada abolished contractual retirement ages?
Lends to credibility-
And here is one of the safety issues- many of the senior pilots charged with evaluating pilots have a lot to gain themselves if pilots are allowed to captain without limitation.

I'll say it again- if a properly rated and qualified pilot cannot be a captain until the arbitrary age of 23- then they ought not be able to captain after 60-
Yip is correct, pilots do not age uniformly- we need the statistically sharper group evaluating and monitoring pilots as they age

December 2007? In my forties.

I have no personal experience with pilots over age 65. My airline, like all other Canadian airlines, is going to have to deal with the impact of legislation that has banned fixed retirement age in the Federal workplace. However, we will have to comply with the ICAO standards for crewing international flights.

At my airline the medical screening process appears to be working. The incidence of pilot disability does clearly increase with age. But those that can meet the standard get to come to work if they pass the technical standard every 6 months. When should it end? The Federal Government has said that assigning a number is now illegal.

 

[waveflyer]

That is because all pilots at 59, 11 months and 29 days are 100% capable and all pilot two days later are incompetent.

Yip- I have never been in an auto accident- I was an athlete and am an airline pilot, like most of us have above average reaction times and am great at multi tasking. I do speed and I have texted while driving. Still no accidents.

Shouldn't it be legal for me to text and drive? Shouldn't it be legal for me to speed???

A friend's cousin was a commuter pilot in 2001- very good pilot- very mature- got a pilots license before his DL- experienced, 4 year degree earned while flying commercially- had to wait for every minimum age in order to proceed- in 9/11 he was constantly flying with captains junior and less experienced than him- but he could not be a PIC until age 23- do I need to continue this story?

You're debating statistics and uniform laws created by valid statistics and personal freedom for us to "give it a shot"

Again- how many people do you know are good at evaluating their age related decline? At anything? Now attach a few million dollars and good benefits and how many will push the edge of their limits? And they'll have the AUTHORITY of a PIC.

To me- fly forever, but no PIC after 60

 

[Bringupthebird]

"Now that I have upgraded, age 65 is discrimination"

How many FOs support raising the age to 67 (or no limit), not many...this is all about the CPs keeping the seat as long as possible (at the expense of the FOs)...

At least one (to 65 at least). I supported it from the time I was a new-hire at a major in my 30's. Even if it delayed my upgrade, it was worth it because it was right. I separated the false argument of safety from the real argument of featherbedding.

Why should the government protect your right to an upward career by promoting a retirement age that had no basis in safety? That's your union's job and they should be held accountable.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Again- how many people do you know are good at evaluating their age related decline? At anything? Now attach a few million dollars and good benefits and how many will push the edge of their limits? And they'll have the AUTHORITY of a PIC.

To me- fly forever, but no PIC after 60

No PIC after you are unable to meet the standards of PIC, regardless of age. Upping the standards? I'm all for that. But up them for all.

Good luck with that, though.

 

[waveflyer]

No PIC after you are unable to meet the standards of PIC, regardless of age. Upping the standards? I'm all for that. But up them for all.

Good luck with that, though.

Yeah- the "right thing"... Was it the "right" thing to hire pilots in anticipation of retirements, and then furlough them after they just gave up decent jobs elsewhere?

And you guys always want to "up the standards" but never focus on the reality of a beauracracy charged with administering those standards-

Should I have the DMV create a new standard for me so that I can legally text and speed while driving-?

 

[rudder]

Good even keeled response-
So youre Canadian- how does it work? When did retirement age go away? Do you have domestic only lines? Or is your airline allowed to retire pilots at 65 due to ICAO -

And you didn't answer - but the question needs a new frame- were you a captain, top of the food chain when Canada abolished contractual retirement ages?
Lends to credibility-
And here is one of the safety issues- many of the senior pilots charged with evaluating pilots have a lot to gain themselves if pilots are allowed to captain without limitation.

I'll say it again- if a properly rated and qualified pilot cannot be a captain until the arbitrary age of 23- then they ought not be able to captain after 60-
Yip is correct, pilots do not age uniformly- we need the statistically sharper group evaluating and monitoring pilots as they age

Well, I guess in the US you can proselytize all you want based on subjective opinion but in Canada the argument is moot. The abolishment of mandatory retirement comes into effect in December 2012 so my status is irrelevant. I neither support it nor challenge it. It is what it is. This business is about adapting and this will be just another bump in the road.

 

[Bringupthebird]

And you guys always want to "up the standards" but never focus on the reality of a beauracracy charged with administering those standards-

The bureaucracy that administers standards is the same one you want to protect your job with a phony retirement age. The FAA delegates that administration to airlines via training programs and staff. Those airlines can submit whatever they like for approval provided it meets the minimum requirement of the FAR.

So the FAA can't be trusted. The Flight Surgeons can't be trusted. The senior pilots can't be trusted. I am beginning to see why you want to stick it to 'da man.

Except that you are "da man" eventually.

 

[waveflyer]

Well, I guess in the US you can proselytize all you want based on subjective opinion but in Canada the argument is moot. The abolishment of mandatory retirement comes into effect in December 2012 so my status is irrelevant. I neither support it nor challenge it. It is what it is. This business is about adapting and this will be just another bump in the road.

Well, in this country the issue is still in the air and we even had several unions who voted on whether to support the current change-
You gave your opinion that you see no age related decline and I find that incredible- I've witnessed a decline from age 30 to 40 in my own memory- so IMO you're dodging valid questions

 

[Bringupthebird]

So you're saying that age related decline is an individual thing and should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket policy that really does nothing to enhance safety?

 

[fullsail]

These guys benefited from age 60 retirements their entire careers and then were granted an additional five. Now they want more. We've been duped fellas...

Does anyone honestly think these same guys at 45 years old would have been willing to delay their upgrade for five years or more? What a joke...it would have been bloody murder. Now their agenda has changed as they near 65. Now that's a big surprise isn't it?

 

[The Prussian]

Well, in this country the issue is still in the air and we even had several unions who voted on whether to support the current change-
You gave your opinion that you see no age related decline and I find that incredible- I've witnessed a decline from age 30 to 40 in my own memory- so IMO you're dodging valid questions

Early onset dementia needs to be reported.

 

[waveflyer]

So you're saying that age related decline is an individual thing and should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket policy that really does nothing to enhance safety?

Absolutely not. And I find it amazingly selfish that geezers want to subject the entire profession to increased scrutiny and establish a far larger beauracracy to judge pilot health and abilities, bc they don't think a statistically based retirement age is fair.

Again, I've never had an accident- should I lobby to require my DMV to assess my reaction times and multi tasking abilities so that I may legally speed and text while driving? Or are valid statistics and common sense enough to set blanket laws that everyone must comply with?

How do you justify the age discrimination at 22 years old given your argument- wouldn't your position be that each pilots matures individually. Hell, why have minimum flight time requirements for an ATP or job application since we all know pilots develop differently over time in the aircraft- all hours are not equal- 1500TT, 2500TT, and 1000TPIC are all blanket discriminations based on the performance of the entire pilot population over decades. Don't you have to argue to erase these roadblocks for a mature, talented, knowledgeable 21 yo, if you are to remain credible that all pilots ought to be evaluated in all ways individually?

Why can't you answer these arguments? Why ignore and dodge like Yip does if your argument is so rational and sound?

Most importantly why can't any geezer admit that they won't be good at evaluating their own age related decline?

How irresponsible to allow these pilots to captain into old age.

 

[waveflyer]

Early onset dementia needs to be reported.

Please its natural

Unless.... You're the one person older than 30 who is sharper today than he was 10 years ago

 

[pilotyip]

Why can't you answer these arguments? Why ignore and dodge like Yip does if your argument is so rational and sound?

Most importantly why can't any geezer admit that they won't be good at evaluating their own age related decline?

This sounds like pure "Get out of my seat" Did you not just a few posts above agree that pilots do not age at the same rate, and that there may be 55 year pilots not as sharp as 64 year old pilots? Talk about dodging and ignoring and the black pot and the black kettle

BTW: Question for everyone, where did the 23 years old ATR come from. I think E. Gann when writing about his AAL flying in the late 30's talked about that magic 23 year old age that allowed a person to temp fate?

Please its natural

Unless.... You're the one person older than 30 who is sharper today than he was 10 years ago

So a 32 year old pilot is not as sharp as he was at 22? I know that experience I gained in my 20's made me a much better pilot when I turned 30, I would like that is the case with most. I think isn't age 27-29 the peak performance age for an athlete? Would that not also apply to pilots peak physical capabilities, not peak mental?

 

[Andy]

67+ is inevitable. I expect it to change within the next 5 years.
The 'fairest' and least detrimental method of implementation of another age change is to increase the age incrementally - for instance one month increase every 3 months. If the age change was implemented in this manner, it would take 6 years to fully implement.

 

[fullsail]

Andy, these guys must be stopped. Our furlough must end. This can't be inevitable. At least we have to "go down swinging."

 

[Andy]

Andy, these guys must be stopped. Our furlough must end. This can't be inevitable. At least we have to "go down swinging."

Pandora's Box has been opened. Fly 'til you die is the future. I'd love to say something different but that's reality. The best that can be done is to make future changes less of a windfall for a few at the expense of others.
The best solution that I can come up with is a graduated age change - increase retirement age by one month each quarter (4 months/yr). If you have a better idea to implement future changes, I'm open to suggestions.

 

[waveflyer]

No- fly til you die might happen- eventually- but not for this current crowd- and no one should captain after 60. Period.
No one will answer whether they'll be good at evaluating their own age related decline, bc they know they won't be. Therefore, pilots should not be able to captain past 60- let captains monitor their FOs as they age.
But I refuse to monitor someone who has authority over me and gets paid more than I do.

 

[pilotyip]

But I refuse to monitor someone who has authority over me and gets paid more than I do.

But isn't that exactly what you are doing for pay right now, being a good PM?