Age 65

[realityman]

Go ahead and tell yourself that having the same opportunity as every pilot alive is being 'entitled' but taking more for themselves and sticking their children with the bill isn't being greedy. It's in Baby Boomer DNA. Nobody else 'deserves' what they can take from them.
Not sure who said this. It wasn't me. I'm not a baby boomer and I'm 'only 41. But addressing the first sentence in the above quote, every pilot DOES have the same opportunity today as those that came before. Remember, many of those that came before had different setbacks in their careers, and have faced many changing variables in this industry, not all of them to their benefit. The same applies to today's pilots. This is just one of those things that MAY not work to their advantage (I say 'may', because I've already pointed out that this could, in fact, work to the benefit of some of the younger guys.)

Go ahead and work an extra trip every month on your days off for free for the next five years. If you don't actually pick up the phone and do it, then you don't believe your own BS.
Have fun.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything I've said. Not sure where you got the idea that I said anyone should work for free. Anytime I work extra for NJA (which is very rarely) I assure you I get paid quite well for it. By the way, you still haven't answered my question: Why, exactly, do the new generation of pilots 'deserve' spots with the airlines? And why, exactly, do you feel the older pilots don't 'deserve' to continue flying if they can?

My 'BS' is no more so than anything coming from someone who is basically saying "Get out of my seat. I deserve it more than you because I'm young."

 

[Hamburger]

IWhy, exactly, do the new generation of pilots 'deserve' spots with the airlines?

Say tomorrow, all the Captains at Netjets sit down with management and used their greater numbers to give themselves a pay raise and the FO's a pay cut. At the core, that's what we're talking about.
After all, those FO's didn't do anything to 'deserve' their pay rate, right? Yeah, I know that the pay rate has been set in stone for decades and the Captain's got it when they were FO's, but now they 'deserve' more.
Those FO's have no reason to be upset, right? That's just the nature of the business.
The worst is when one of those greedy, entitled FO's, who has to work to work overtime to break even, has the audacity to not tell the Captain he's special and 'deserves' a raise.

All kinds of uncertainty out there for everyone, but only one segment faces that uncertainty by eating their young. This isn't economy, this isn't fuel price, this isn't 9/11. It's pilots taking from pilots.

My 'BS' is no more so than anything coming from someone who is basically saying "Get out of my seat. I deserve it more than you because I'm young."

That's exactly what every one of them said when they were FO's.
But now they're special and 'deserve' more.
"Give me your money because there are more of us, and we're special."

You've boiled it down to: "you lose, that's the breaks, suck it up. They've got the numbers, boo hoo for you."
You're right. Absolutely.

Just don't try to pretend that five years of my life or hundreds of thousands of dollars are no big deal. Don't try to tell me how lucky I am to have the 'privilege' of working an extra five years for free. Don't try to tell the guy who just wanted the same deal that every pilot before him got (nothing more, nothing less) is greedy while the guy who took more isn't.
It's just not going to fly.

CEO pillages the pension; do you get upset at the CEO or do you call the pilots entitled and greedy for thinking they 'deserved' anything in this uncertain industry?

 

[Fubijaakr]

By the way, you still haven't answered my question: Why, exactly, do the new generation of pilots 'deserve' spots with the airlines? And why, exactly, do you feel the older pilots don't 'deserve' to continue flying if they can?

Because he can't. Because Humbuger wants what YOU have. And he isn't shy about saying so.

My 'BS' is no more so than anything coming from someone who is basically saying "Get out of my seat. I deserve it more than you because I'm young."

The problem with youngsters like Humbuger is that he grew up watching "My Sweet Sixteen" on MTV. He wants it all...RIGHT NOW! So everyone holding a left seat needs to get the puck out of his way so he can have what he honestly believes is rightfully his.

After all, you started working when the retirement Age was 60. I guess you lost the contract you signed that specifically stated you were legally required to retire at the statuatory age in force at the time you were hired.

I guess using that reasoning, all 18 year olds should be allowed to continue drinking when their state raises the legal age to 21. After all, they were legally drinking at 18 so they should be legally entitled when the age goes up.

Some examples from his own mouth:

It's pilots taking from pilots.

Don't try to tell me how lucky I am to have the 'privilege' of working an extra five years for free.

Don't try to tell the guy who just wanted the same deal that every pilot before him got (nothing more, nothing less) is greedy....

Boiled down, its "I WANT MINE!!!"

From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of GREED

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed

 

[Hamburger]

I guess using that reasoning, all 18 year olds should be allowed to continue drinking when their state raises the legal age to 21. After all, they were legally drinking at 18 so they should be legally entitled when the age goes up.

Perfect example! Are those 18 year olds "greedy and entitled"? Did the 21 year olds do something special to 'deserve' to drink at 18? If it were the 21 year olds who fought and got the drinking age changed (after they turned 21 of course), you don't think the 18 year olds have a right to be pissed? The 18 year olds haven't lost anything because they can drink when they're 90, right?

Because Humbuger wants what YOU have. And he isn't shy about saying so.

Wrong. I want what you and everyone before you HAD, before you took more.

Definition of GREED: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something

It's not me that wants more. All I want is the same. No more and no less than you and everyone before you had.

Boiled down, its "I WANT MINE!!!"

Whereas for you guys, boiled down it's "I WANT MINE AND YOURS TOO!"

 

[Fubijaakr]

Sorry, Humbuger, I've got to take my own advice.

You can't teach a pig to sing. Its a waste of your time and it infuriates the pig.

And you're the pig, son. Grow up. It is what it is. Now, gear up.

 

[Hamburger]

Like I said realityman, it is what it is. I never bring it up.

I don't want you to feel sorry for me. Yeah, we took a hit, but that's life.

When a guy like yourself, who isn't affected, says; "well, when you think about it, it's not really a big deal..It all comes out in the wash" Then I'm going to let you know that's not the case. Thousands of guys took it in the shorts on this one and you're frankly insulting their intelligence by trying to claim anything different. We aren't fools.

I'm also not going to sit here and feed Fubi's coping mechanisms where I'm the greedy one, not him. This isn't some random 'anything can happen in a career' variable. It was a deliberate effort, organized by people like him to take from people like me.

I don't bring it up. It's done. I've had to make some adjustments, but I'll be just fine.

What I refuse to do is sit on my hands while people tell me it was no big deal, or that I'm the greedy one.

 

[realityman]

Say tomorrow, all the Captains at Netjets sit down with management and used their greater numbers to give themselves a pay raise and the FO's a pay cut. I'm sorry, I don't work for your airline. Could you please post the pay scales that show you will now be making less? Really? The new age 65 rule started and your company immediately implemented a concessionary pay scale where your wages were downgraded? Show me which years of service, specifically, you'll be working for free in. Last time, and then I'm done with this: I will grant you that you will HAVE to work longer to get the same years as a captain, but over the course of your career, you will make a total of MORE, even at F/O wages, than you would have with the age 60 rule. As you have said yourself, the math doesn't lie. At no point do I see you working for free.At the core, that's what we're talking about.
After all, those FO's didn't do anything to 'deserve' their pay rate, right? Yeah, I know that the pay rate has been set in stone for decades and the Captain's got it when they were FO's, but now they 'deserve' more. Okay, you're angry. Like i said, you feel how you feel and you're entitled to feel however you want to about it. It's a personal thing. But your anger is blinding you to some other facts. It wasn't the pilots who came up with the random age of 60 to force pilots out. It was airline management. Without so much as a "would you mind terribly if we....?" airline management cut short the careers of tens of thousands of pilots. This age wasn't based on any scientific safety data. It was a random age chosen to force out the highest paid pilots in the workforce. And despite what you've previously said, most pilots have been fighting for a very long time to get rid ofnthe age 60 thing. We're talking decades. Maybe instead of viewing it as them taking something from you, they're taking back something that was taken, most unfairly, from them. You like to mention those not hired yet. Well, as pilots retire, and there is some growth in the airline industry, things will even out again. The newhires of the future will now have a choice to retire at age 60, making the same money as pilots of the past, or continue on to age 65 and make even more. It is those of you who are caught in the transition who MAY experience a downside to this change. chosen
Those FO's have no reason to be upset, right? That's just the nature of the business.
The worst is when one of those greedy, entitled FO's, who has to work to work overtime to break even, has the audacity to not tell the Captain he's special and 'deserves' a raise.

All kinds of uncertainty out there for everyone, but only one segment faces that uncertainty by eating their young. This isn't economy, this isn't fuel price, this isn't 9/11. It's pilots taking from pilots.


That's exactly what every one of them said when they were FO's.
But now they're special and 'deserve' more.
"Give me your money because there are more of us, and we're special."

You've boiled it down to: "you lose, that's the breaks, suck it up. They've got the numbers, boo hoo for you."No. I never said you shouldn't be upset. I just keep saying that it isn't all bad for ALL the current and future F/O's. You don't want to work until 65. I get it. But I will bet you my next year's salary that there are a great many F/O's who are thrilled with the fact they don't have to quit at 65 if they don't want to. We have a whole bunch of retired airline guys at NJA. Some are working because they need to. Many more are here because they weren't ready to quit flying, were still physically and mentally sharp enough to be able to do the job, and wanted to stay in the flight levels a little longer. Do you really think this condition applies only to their generation. Through all the years, pilots are pilots. Some things just don't change. And as such, I don't believe that ALL the F/O's got hosed, or that they all feel badly about the new rule. Again, it's a personal thing. You feel you got hosed. Okay. No one is telling you to feel otherwise. But don't try to tell me that ALL F/O's feel the same way.
You're right. Absolutely.

Just don't try to pretend that five years of my life or hundreds of thousands of dollars are no big deal. Don't try to tell me how lucky I am to have the 'privilege' of working an extra five years for free. Don't try to tell the guy who just wanted the same deal that every pilot before him got (nothing more, nothing less) is greedy while the guy who took more isn't.
It's just not going to fly.I'm not calling anyone greedy. And as things rebalance in the industry, everyone will have the same opportunity as those that came before them. In fact, it will present MORE opportunities and choices than they would have had previously. You don't like the deal. Okay. It's just a shame that in your anger you can't see how this will benefit many working today, and all who will come in the future.

CEO pillages the pension; do you get upset at the CEO or do you call the pilots entitled and greedy for thinking they 'deserved' anything in this uncertain industry?

I wish you luck with your career. Maybe things will turn out better than you think.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I wish you luck with your career. Maybe things will turn out better than you think.

Doubtful, RM. All guys like Humbuger do is biatch about how they were "screwed" by the man. He'll never be happy because he was too busy counting his chickens before they hatched. Now that he's realized his error he's too busy worrying about the water that has already passed under the bridge.

Hopefully, someday he'll grow up.

 

[Semore Butts]

Mr. Hamburger

Why are you on the fractional part of the board having this argument?

This should be taken over to the commuter or majors protion of Flightinfo.

We don't have a mandantory retirement age of 65 at the fractionals, and I hope we never do.

Personally, I hope to be retired at 65.

I'm so tired of this argument, I think anyone who wants this rule is setting themselves up for a good screwing. (Taking away an option you may very well need. One big medical problem could wipe out your savings, or getting sued, who knows? A natural disaster? So much could happen)

"Carma is a bitch"!

Good luck to you all, and you as well Mr. Hamburger

Semore

 

[Fubijaakr]

We don't have a mandantory retirement age of 65 at the fractionals, and I hope we never do.

Humbuger is exactly the reason why you don't want this rule. You'd have to put up with a bunch of green-eyed little boys who want your seat. You're lucky that isn't the case in the fracs...yet.