Age 65

[realityman]

No thanks.

Guys calling me greedy while taking hundreds of thousands of dollars out of my pocket will always get under my skin.

What are you basing those PERCEIVED losses on? Are you using some standard time frame for upgrades? Such as, everyone who is hired today at a major would have upgraded in 10 years, but now must wait another 5 years because of the older pilots who are hanging around. See what I mean? Of course, even with waiting another 5 years for upgrade, wouldn't you make the same money anyway since YOU can now work until 65?
Does your formula take into account whether an airline grows or shrinks? Hires or furloughs? Effects of future economies? Possible downgrades? Concessionary future contracts? Future contracts that may provide more monetary gains for F/O's than captains? How did you arrive at your figures anyway? Did you assume the 'old guys' would take 5 more years of captain's pay from you? Is that assuming they should leave at 60 but YOU should work until 65?
And how does this affect the 'old guys'? Are you assuming that all of them were able to be captains for 30 years, but you'll only get to be one for 20? What were their wages as captains 30 years ago vs. what you are presently making as an F/O?

In other words, how big is the disparity anyway? The numbers you presented are only guesses. You could be dead on. You could also be way off. Sure, if it was still age 60 you'd upgrade 5 years sooner, but you'd also retire 5 years sooner. If all other factors remain the same (airline size, the economy, static growth, etc...) you will spend the same amount of time as a captain under age 65 as you would have under age 60. The REAL difference is you will be an F/O longer (depending on when you were hired). But that's extra work time you didn't have before, so it's all bonus money in the course of your career anyway. With age 60, you'd have the same amount of time as captain, but five less years worked altogether, so total earnings would actually be less under age 60 rules.

What this discussion really reveals, is the sort of mindset some on here have. It becomes very obvious who has a positive outlook on life, and who only sees things in the negative.

 

[Hamburger]

Such as, everyone who is hired today at a major would have upgraded in 10 years, but now must wait another 5 years because of the older pilots who are hanging around. See what I mean? Of course, even with waiting another 5 years for upgrade, wouldn't you make the same money anyway since YOU can now work until 65?

No. You wouldn't. Don't fall for their line of BS, that you get an extra five years at the top. It's not a sliding scale, 65 is a hard number. You get an extra five years where you're at. The FO gets to spend an extra five years as an FO, the Captain gets to spend it as a Captain. The guys you're talking about who is hired today.....Gets to spend that five years not even hired.

CA: hired at 30, upgrades at 40, then the ruling comes down. 10 years as FO/25 years as CA
FO: hired at 30 in the same class as captain, has upgrade class cancelled and has to spend the five years as an FO, so upgrades at 45. 15 years as an FO/20 years as Captain.
Your guy: Had a newhire class date at 30, but now has to wait just to be hired at 35. 10 years FO/20 years Captain.

You can throw in the "there's a million different variables" and "nobody promised you an upgrade date when you were hired". Absolutely, these are just numbers to illustrate the point. However, regardless of where the line falls after all the variables specific to a particular job are taken into account, the 65 ruling is a Constant and that line moved by five years.
Also, for every guy that Doesn't stay till 65 or dies trying, the hit is less.

 

[Hamburger]

Sure, if it was still age 60 you'd upgrade 5 years sooner, but you'd also retire 5 years sooner. If all other factors remain the same (airline size, the economy, static growth, etc...) you will spend the same amount of time as a captain under age 65 as you would have under age 60.

You're not taking into account which side of the line you are on when the 'button got pushed'. When it was age 60, they DID upgrade five years sooner and then the switch flipped and they DIDN'T retire five years sooner.
Also, all other things being equal, you get hired at 35 instead of 30. It's not a sliding scale.......65 is a hard number, but you continue to age while you're waiting for the backlog to clear out.

 

[Hamburger]

With age 60, you'd have the same amount of time as captain, but five less years worked altogether, so total earnings would actually be less under age 60 rules.

That only works if nobody was actually employed when the button was pushed. But the reality is, everyone was employed, or on the way to being.

What this discussion really reveals, is the sort of mindset some on here have. It becomes very obvious who has a positive outlook on life, and who only sees things in the negative.

No amount of outlook can change math.
I accept it. I'm not leading a recall effort, horse has left the barn.
It is what it is. It sucks, but That's life.

What I have a problem with is when they've been able to snow guys like yourself out of doing the math. If you aren't a Captain (who didn't get downgraded as a result), You have taken a huge hit. Do you say people who get upset about high taxes don't have a positive outlook on life?
What I have a huge problem with is them telling me I'm greedy or that "I just see things in the negative" while they're taking hundreds of thousands of dollars out of my pocket. I'm not a fool.

 

[realityman]

No. You wouldn't. Don't fall for their line of BS, that you get an extra five years at the top. It's not a sliding scale, 65 is a hard number. You get an extra five years where you're at. The FO gets to spend an extra five years as an FO, the Captain gets to spend it as a Captain. The guys you're talking about who is hired today.....Gets to spend that five years not even hired.

CA: hired at 30, upgrades at 40, then the ruling comes down. 10 years as FO/25 years as CA
FO: hired at 30 in the same class as captain, has upgrade class cancelled and has to spend the five years as an FO, so upgrades at 45. 15 years as an FO/20 years as Captain.
Your guy: Had a newhire class date at 30, but now has to wait just to be hired at 35. 10 years FO/20 years Captain.

You can throw in the "there's a million different variables" and "nobody promised you an upgrade date when you were hired". Absolutely, these are just numbers to illustrate the point. However, regardless of where the line falls after all the variables specific to a particular job are taken into account, the 65 ruling is a Constant and that line moved by five years.
Also, for every guy that Doesn't stay till 65 or dies trying, the hit is less.

No. You aren't looking at this correctly. Forget what the captains get with the age 65 rule. It's actually irrelevant. Your argument is that something has been taken from YOU (assuming you're an F/O). So let's look at it.

Forget all the variables that can come into play. I'll keep it simple like you did.

You get hired as an F/O at 30. You upgrade at 40. Under the age 60 rule, you'll have 20 years as a captain. Total career with the airline is 30 years.

Now under the age 65 rule, you get hired at 30. Because of the extra five years, you now upgrade at 45. You still spend 20 years as captain. BUT, total time with the airline is now 35 years. You have gained an extra five years of income in your chosen profession. Yeah, it's at F/O wages, but it's money you wouldn't have had under the age 60 rule. You STILL get 20 years as captain.

Perhaps your anger comes from the fact that some of those captains may get 25 or 30 years as captains, where you may only get 20. But even under the age 60 rule, you'd have the same time as captain, depending on when you were hired and how long until upgrades.

Your time as captain doesn't change. Your time as F/O may be extended, but again, those are an EXTRA 5 years you wouldn't have had under the age 60 rule.

The only way you're getting hosed is if you're assuming the current crop of captains should get out at age 60, but YOU should be allowed to fly until 65.

 

[realityman]

FO: hired at 30 in the same class as captain, has upgrade class cancelled and has to spend the five years as an FO, so upgrades at 45. 15 years as an FO/20 years as Captain.

This is the only thing I can see where someone may get hosed in this deal. However, this is so specific, it would affect only a very small handful of people. Yeah, it would suck to be one of those people. But overall, the vast majority of F/O's will NOT be losing out on captain pay.

 

[realityman]

You're not taking into account which side of the line you are on when the 'button got pushed'. When it was age 60, they DID upgrade five years sooner and then the switch flipped and they DIDN'T retire five years sooner.
Also, all other things being equal, you get hired at 35 instead of 30. It's not a sliding scale.......65 is a hard number, but you continue to age while you're waiting for the backlog to clear out.

What this sounds like to me is just jealousy of current captains. Sometimes you have good things happen to you, and sometimes you don't. In this case, current captains get an extra five years of earning power. That IS just how it goes in this industry.
You could also (as an F/O) get furloughed for 5 years, while the captains stay on and make that EXTRA 5 years of captain pay that you aren't.

As for those not hired yet, can't speak for them. When you're looking at a career (any job), it's not in the interest of those currently employed to be making rules that favor folks who aren't even on property yet. Would you take a pay cut if your company told you that by doing so they'd be able to hire more pilots? The best thing you can do to help those who aren't even employees yet is to get the best deal overall so when they do finally get hired, it's a great job. So maybe they have to wait an extra 5 years to get hired. If you really want to help them, then get the payscales way up for everyone currently there so when the new hires come on they are making better money than you were when you were hired.

 

[realityman]

What I have a problem with is when they've been able to snow guys like yourself out of doing the math. If you aren't a Captain (who didn't get downgraded as a result), You have taken a huge hit. Do you say people who get upset about high taxes don't have a positive outlook on life?
What I have a huge problem with is them telling me I'm greedy or that "I just see things in the negative" while they're taking hundreds of thousands of dollars out of my pocket. I'm not a fool.

No one has snowed me. Who do you think is feeding me numbers? I just have a different viewpoint on it than you do. Not saying I'm right. Just putting my opinion out there. Same as you.

But I disagree on whether you've taken a hit. If you still get the same time as captain, but get to work an extra 5 years with the airline, even as an F/O, then you've made MORE than you would have otherwise. As for the higher taxes analogy, are they paying more in taxes because they're making more money and have moved up into a higher tax bracket? I wouldn't be too upset if that happened to me. And yes, being upset about high taxes without seeing ANYTHING positive from it is not having a positive outlook on life. Sure, the high taxes suck, but hey, the roads are maintained well. My kid isn't paying a tuition to go to a public school. I don't have to maintain my own personal military to protect myself from other countries. The police show up at my door when I dial 911. High taxes ARE upsetting, but there is at least SOME good that comes from them. Like I said, it's all in your outlook.

BTW, I've never called you greedy, or even thought it. I just don't think anything has been taken from you. You've been GIVEN 5 more years in the industry.

 

[Hamburger]

If you still get the same time as captain, but get to work an extra 5 years with the airline, even as an F/O, then you've made MORE than you would have otherwise.

You don't get the same time as a Captain, that's the point. The extra five years I get at the airline are spent as an FO. A big 5 year pause button was hit and we are living these magical extra five years right now.

You get hired as an F/O at 30. You upgrade at 40. Under the age 60 rule, you'll have 20 years as a captain. Total career with the airline is 30 years.
Now under the age 65 rule, you get hired at 30.

The thing is. I got hired at 30, the rule passed and now I don't upgrade until 45. Same 20 years as a Captain, five more as an FO.
The guy who hasn't been hired yet doesn't get hired until he's 35. Five more years at the Regionals for him for that same 20 years as Captain.
The Captain who upgraded when he was 40 and then pushed for 65, now has 25 years as Captain.

Get it? Everyone else has the same 20 years as Captain, but the current guys get an extra five.

The guys that pushed this through are forcing everyone else to work five extra years to "break even" so that they can take more.

Everyone before them had 20 year Captain Careers and everyone behind them gets a 20 year Captain Career, but they get a 25 year Captain Career.
The cost? Everyone behind them has to sacrifice five of their golden years going to work instead of playing golf. I'm not jealous, I'm pissed. Five years of my life is a big deal. Of course, I can still retire at 60, and plan to, but it will cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so, because I now only get 15 years as a Captain.

I know you haven't called me greedy, I jumped in when Fubi, who does, piped up. I doesn't seem that you're 121, so you may not even have a dog in this fight, but a LOT of us do. I'm merely trying to bring to your attention the reality of what this did.

And yes, being upset about high taxes without seeing ANYTHING positive from it is not having a positive outlook on life.

The taxes bit lost something in the translation. Not at all what I was trying to say.
How about this: Tell me what you see positive about having to work an extra five years to achieve what the guy sitting next to you already had so that he can take more. Tell me how to be positive about him calling you greedy.

 

[imacdog]

This is the only thing I can see where someone may get hosed in this deal. However, this is so specific, it would affect only a very small handful of people. Yeah, it would suck to be one of those people. But overall, the vast majority of F/O's will NOT be losing out on captain pay.

Actually at the airlines, it affected everyone who was an FO at the time of the ruling. Not an insignificant number. To make the same number of years as Captain as they would have before, they now have to work until 65. Get it?