Age 65 2007

[Flopgut]

oh ryan this a pilot board stop dealing in reality. It is only self serving if it is some one else's position.

Self serving is looking to your coworkers for a raise and letting your company and the govt off the hook. We are ALL just employees. You're not supposed to steal money from your fellow employees. If you need more dough, get a job. Or get a raise, we'll be glad to help with that! Or maybe even...offer a COMPROMISE??? Why not people?! Like: Pay protect the junior folks. Or go to FO when you turn +60. Or maybe when you turn +60 you should let one of us write your wrinkly, scaly butt off our taxes! Why not? You're going to cost us more money than a child dependant!

 

[Oh-ryan]

I'm sorry, but most of those wanting an 60 rule change are those who are 55+, who benefited their whole careers from this rule and now want to extend their top scale salaries for 5 additional years, at the expense of everyone else (increased LTD and health care costs, decreased profit sharing, diluted wages on future contracts, stagnant movement, etc.) I would call that much more "vial, selfish, and self serving" than wanting the status quo or a phased in rule change.

No I'm sorry, but he didn't specify that the major proponents of age 65 were 55+. If he had then I wouldn't have said a word, but he didn't. He just lumped everyone together into the "Age 65 crowd". I bet there are quite a few 30/40 somethings who have seen the turmoil that can happen in this industry and wouldnt mind having the opportunity to fly til 65 at a 121 carrier.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but anyone who opposes 65 and cites not being able to upgrade quicker as a reason while calling those who support it vial, selfish and self serving needs to put the stones down or build a house that isn't made of glass. In this case, both groups are acting selfish. The biggest argument for 65 is that Europeans are allowed into our airspace. The biggest argument against it is that, if enacted, the copilot needs to be under 60 (what kind of message does that send?). Spare me the safety arguments, the arguments that "So we should do what the French do?" and the "Get out of my seat" arguments.

 

[Black Hawk]

No I'm sorry, but he didn't specify that the major proponents of age 65 were 55+. If he had then I wouldn't have said a word, but he didn't. He just lumped everyone together into the "Age 65 crowd". I bet there are quite a few 30/40 somethings who have seen the turmoil that can happen in this industry and wouldnt mind having the opportunity to fly til 65 at a 121 carrier.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but anyone who opposes 65 and cites not being able to upgrade quicker as a reason while calling those who support it vial, selfish and self serving needs to put the stones down or build a house that isn't made of glass. In this case, both groups are acting selfish. The biggest argument for 65 is that Europeans are allowed into our airspace. The biggest argument against it is that, if enacted, the copilot needs to be under 60 (what kind of message does that send?). Spare me the safety arguments, the arguments that "So we should do what the French do?" and the "Get out of my seat" arguments.

Good comments. I'm one of those 40 somethings that thinks using a safety rule for career progression is a crock. When the limit changes to 65 the unions can negotiate better pay for FO's based on the number of age 60+ pilots on staff.

 

[Flybynite]

So, judging by your sarcastic logic

Nothing sarcastic about it. I've finally seen the light and come over to the other side. I'm just following the lead of the rest of the anti change crowd and am writing all Senators and Congressmen with the safety concerns that have been so eloquently outlined here on FI. I encourage everyone to do the same, feel free to use my list as an example. I have also made up a bag tag in support of no change:

Get out of MY seat old man
(for safety reasons of course!)

 

[Uncle Bort]

It's another form of corporate welfare. Push retirement obligations down the road another five years.

 

[XJTAv8r]

I bet there are quite a few 30/40 somethings who have seen the turmoil that can happen in this industry and wouldnt mind having the opportunity to fly til 65 at a 121 carrier.

The only people I have any respect for in the pro-change crowd are those who you describe, the younger ones who are more principled and are less likely to be looking at lining their pockets at their younger co-worker's expense.

In this case, both groups are acting selfish.

True, but I think there's a significantly higher degree of selfishness associated with those who are nearing age 60 and want to extend their time at the top earnings scale verses those wanting the status quo maintained. I'm already paying for their SS retirement, now I have to pay for their 5 extra years of 6 figure salary?

 

[Flopgut]

This IS a safety issue. It's a durable rule that we have in fact grown into over the years, and it works. Remember: Changes relaxing 02 mask requirements were close to reality prior to Cypress. This is another rule that has served us well we don't need to relax.

O-Ryan: Here is why you can "lump them all together": They are the minority and don't care about the affects on collective bargaining. They want more, and are happy to take from their peers. "Ingredients" are falling into place for pilot labor to take back what we lost. Let's try to get everyone a raise by getting the dollars back into these contracts. Let's not squander it by accepting a 20% longer career as a "raise". This will bring to a halt the growing liklihood of additional money from our employers and simultaneously reduce the portion of dollars already going to our junior members. It's bad policy, you don't run any sort of concern that way.

 

[The Prussian]

Question:

The only people I have any respect for in the pro-change crowd are those who you describe, the younger ones who are more principled and are less likely to be looking at lining their pockets at their younger co-worker's expense.

How about those who have been actively seeking change for over 15 years, having started in their mid to late 30's. Now that they are in their 50's...why should they suddenly be deemed and branded "selfish"???

 

[BoilerUP]

How about those who have been actively seeking change for over 15 years, having started in their mid to late 30's. Now that they are in their 50's...why should they suddenly be deemed and branded "selfish"???

What percentage of the current "Abolish Age 60" crowd has been actively seeking change for over the last 15 years - half of which were some of the best times in aviation history?

I'd wager less than 5%.

 

[Flopgut]

I'd wager less than 5%.

I'd wager that correct.

While theirs is perhaps a more principled one, it's still a very small percentage of a whole that wants something else.

 

[XJTAv8r]

How about those who have been actively seeking change for over 15 years, having started in their mid to late 30's. Now that they are in their 50's...

Ok, include that small minority....But I think most of us know the majority of pro rule change folks are primarily looking for extra $$$ under the guise of "age discrimination."

 

[Occam's Razor]

Ok, include that small minority....But I think most of us know the majority of pro rule change folks are primarily looking for extra $$$ under the guise of "age discrimination."

Oooo! Oooo!

I know!

All?

(What did I win?)

 

[Duke of Ale]

a vial is a small container, especially for liquids; vile is an adjective meaning despicable, disgusting, or repulsive

 

[desolo]

I dont usually say anything but here it goes.
I'm a pilot for Southwest, and my union is fighting age 60. I am against changing the rule only because of the angle my union is using as the selling point. They say its discrimination, but I think its about the money and quality of life. How can anyboby want to work in a discriminatory industry. If only they would be honest about it they would not only get my vote but my respect. I also ask the senior guy's that if they think a retired pilot age 64 should have a shot at coming back with their seniority #. They say sure but at the bottom of the list, now how is that fair. I understand that the industry has changed and that the rules must change with the times but lets drop the discrimination angle. In my opinion, I think the rule will change eventually, I only hope that it will be fair for both young and old pilots. Fly safe...

 

[Draginass]

The age 60 proponents knew the rules when they came into this profession. To change the rules now requires a compelling reason since it will harm a large group of those that came into the profession under the same conditions.

How about if the senior guys decided that they wanted to take away 15% of the junior guys' paychecks and keep it for themselves? Would that be fair? That's in reality what they are doing by arbitrarily changing a long-standing working condition that benefits them. I don't want to work in this stinking profession past 60 and have planned my career that way. The raising the age whores are trying to steal money out of my pocket by prolonging furlough time and delaying upgrade. It's as simple as that.

 

[popgoesbubble]

I agree I'm a Pilot at NJA and we have pilots that are in there 70's that are still flying it B's. alot of guys have said they were gonna retire after they got the last of there big signing bonus but guess what none had and none will it's all about greed and the Baby Boomer way of life thinking that as long as they have there's they don't care about the other crews.

I've heard alot of stupid replies from some of these 70 year old farts flying the Falcon saying " I don't Need the Money", "I just Do it cuz my wife wants me out of the house" That is the biggest load of ******************** I have ever heard! if you don't need the money pick up a hobbie Golf, fishing playing with the grand kids etc. if you still have the bug to fly go do some contract flying part time.

But to say you would rather be gone 14 days out of the month getting 10 -12 hours rest on overnights and slinging bags all day well thats aload of crap. I know I just hijacked the airline thread but we have the same problem over here as you guys do. as far as Hoot Gibson goes crying that he's not ready to retire I bet if you went back 10 or 15 years and asked him should the age 60 limit be raised he'll say HELL NO! oh and Im in my mid 30's and I can say I don't want to fly past 60.

 

[airfogey]

What percentage of the current "Abolish Age 60" crowd has been actively seeking change for over the last 15 years - half of which were some of the best times in aviation history?

I'd wager less than 5%.

I have been, and I'm not over 55.

Airfogey

 

[rtmcfi]

I have been, and I'm not over 55.

Airfogey

But you are over 50..

 

[Phaedrus]

Uh, yeah, nice study.

 

[Purpledog]

Get a life, go play golf or something. I hate being on trips with someone whose entire identity is defined by being a pilot. Shallow, embarrassing to be with.